Commander front shocks are on. Bolts and bushings were exactly the same size. It is the same length at full droop as the stock shocks and my strongmade lift kit. But I went from 10.5" (with strongmade lift) to bottom of front skid plate to 12.5" sitting on my big horn 27s. This should give 2" more suspension travel. The shock bodies are much larger. Very good, cheap solution to the weak front shocks which weren't all that bad until I added a large bumper and winch.
Sorry I didn't make it clear.
They are off a 2012 commander. eBay purchase $187 shipped. They were exactly 1" longer than the stock 2015s that I took off (according to my measurements). I'm not sure how much lift over stock they would provide as I have not measured my stock height and only had the measurement with strongmade lift to go off of. This measurement was also to the bottom of my UHMW skid which is pretty thick.
I have the preload set all the way down and find them much softer. My progressive stock 2015s before were stiffer in feel but were also partially compressed at static due to the amount of weight from bumper and winch.
I have yet to find a solution to the rear shocks which are sprung very heavy. I thought I was bottoming them with load but it turns out it's just my 27" tires rubbing the wheel well. They are strong springs but don't provide the best ride. I may just put the strongmade lift on the rear to level it out. I haven't put that on yet due to the garage door height restriction. It rubs on the way through badly now.
Anyone else find alternatives for rear shocks now that I have the fronts figured out?
So just to clarify with this, the rear shocks on the 1000 would fit the 700 but be a little too long? Do you know how much longer they would be? How does the rear ride with the auto leveling shocks?
CumminsPusher
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Thanks for the help. Looks like I'll be searching for some take off p1000 rear shocks, self leveling or not.
Tflynn
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The idea was out there before as I have seen photos but not really that much concrete information on it so still a bit of uncharted territory. Now it's trial and error for front shock settings and rear shocks. The springs are fine but the rear shocks really aren't the best. If you look at the photo I took it really shows the massive difference in shock body size between the commanders and stock. If I could find some rear commander shocks I would try those. Not sure on the specs of those though and if they'd fit. It is also not rated for the load the pioneer is so although it may ride smoother or provide lift, it might not handle the full weight rating of the pioneer.
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Does anyone know the exact length of the stock rear shocks off the top of their head? I don't want to take mine out to measure if I don't have to.
Also, what is the rear spring rate in pounds for the pioneer 700-4?
I called Honda and they researched it coming up empty handed. They simply don't know. It was suggested to ask the dealer. Not sure how they would figure it out over corporate.
I called Honda and they researched it coming up empty handed. They simply don't know. It was suggested to ask the dealer. Not sure how they would figure it out over corporate.
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Tflynn
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Measuring from the center of the bolt holes, Rears are 18 1/4". Fronts are 19 3/8". May not be an EXACT measurement but within a 1/16". Ought to be close enough for what you're doing. And that's with the shock off the utv just to be clear.
Do you happen to know the length of the shock shaft, including rubber bump stop (from shock body to cap)? I'm doing some massive research here and finding an easy, cheap shock replacement for the pioneers with proper spring rates that will also provide acceptable amounts of lift. Stay tuned for final outcome!
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Here is what I have been working on and all the information I have gathered. I am now into the testing phase as my researched has mostly been completed. Pictures will be added later showing heights and CV angles of the finalized shock/spring combination choices. I will update once I get more information to fill in the "?" blanks. If you happen to have or know that information already please feel free to fill it in and let me know. All my shock measurements were made from center eyelet to center eyelet.
My goal is to find replacement springs and shocks that provide added capacity and lack of bottoming. What I also wanted to accomplish was to get lift within specifications of the lift kits on the market. The one I used to compare it to was the StrongMade lift kit as that is what I had handy. The other requirements I had with replacing the shocks was to also have a more quality ride and longer suspension travel but all at a reasonable price.
I have been able to get the stock spring rates for the dual rate shocks. In finding this info, I noticed that the springs are not the problem in the stock suspension, the shocks are. They are sprung VERY heavy for a stock machine, heavier than most machine rear shocks are! The numbers that Honda gave me were in Newtons per MM of travel so all numbers I gave are rounded when converted to Pounds per Inch.
Pioneer Stock:
Front: 206-328 LB/Inch (36N/mm then 57.5N/mm) Progressive
Rear: 260 LB/Inch (45.6N per mm)
Stock front:
1.25" eyelet shocks, 5.25" shock shaft travel
Shock Length: 19.25" eye to eye extended, 14" eye to eye fully compressed
Weight of the machine on the shocks Resting Compressed 17" eye to eye
11.25" resting clearance to frame on 27" BigHorn tires & StrongMade lift installed
Stock rear:
1.5" eyelet, ?" shock shaft travel
Shock Length: 18.5" eye to eye extended, ?" eye to eye fully compressed
Weight of the machine on the shocks resting compressed with preload set highest 16.75 eye to eye
12.5" resting clearance to frame on 27" BigHorn tires, NO lift installed, again preload highest
Now came the hard part of finding shocks that would fit in the eyelets and provide lift similar to those already on the market. I looked at a few shock options, Can-Am Commander XT 2011-2015 models and Polaris RZRs. I settled on the Commander as the shock eyelets were proper width and the length of the shocks were spot on to match the StrongMade lift. They are also adjustable front and rear for preload and a much larger shock body than stock. Both front and rear shocks are nearly identical, I am assuming only the valving is different. The shocks are gas charged unlike stock Pioneer shocks which are not and do not rebound on their own. The shocks are longer but so is the shock travel. I should gain (a rough guess) 2" of front and rear suspension travel while not allowing bottoming or tire rub as they should not compress further than stock. They will provide a constant lift, unlike the StrongMade lift kit which doesn't do much for the front when there is weight on it, this is mostly due to the angle change when the lift is installed allowing for the wheels to put more leverage on the shocks causing a need for a heavier spring to avoid bottoming (which is the problem I had). Both stock and the Commander shocks have rubber bump stops on the shock shaft.
Commander Stock:
Front: 137-162.7 LB Progressive
Rear: 200 LB
The shock eyelets are 1.25" and 6" shock shaft travel
Both shocks are 20.1" eye to eye extended and 14.1" eye to eye fully compressed
I mounted the front shocks from the Commander, a 2013 XT, and found them to work great. Suspension travel was increased and they were smooth although a little soft for me. I did not notice any bottoming but I also did not get a chance to beat on them before deciding to go with a heavier spring. I compared them to aftermarket and stock Pioneer spring weights to find the ideal numbers and ordered what I thought would be the best combination of spring weights. It is not just the spring rate that needs to be calculated but also the overall usable spring. For example, if a stock Pioneer had 5" of shock travel and the Commander has 6", you have gained 1" of shock travel. If the spring is 200 LB then you gain that much in overall spring during full compression. Therefore, in theory, you could use a lighter spring while retaining the overall spring weight and get a softer ride. I tried to stay stock or higher but you could also play around with the rates yourself. The numbers I put were approximate total weights using shock shaft travel. With progressive springs I split shock travel length in half per rate (this is clearly an approximation and could be way off). The rear shock travel length of the Pioneer is still unknown and I just made the assumption it is the same as the front for now.
Pioneer Stock with 5.25" travel:
Front: 206-328 LB (total pounds 1402)
Rear: 260 LB (total pounds 1365)
Pioneer Fox shocks with 5.25" travel:
Front: 225 LB (total pounds 1181)
Rear: 300-350 LB Progressive (total pounds 1706)
Commander stock with 6" travel:
Front: 137-162.7 LB (total pounds 899)
Rear: 200 LB (total pounds 1200)
Commander Superatv springs:
Available in weights of up to 175LB (front)
and up to 225LB rear (total pounds of the 225 springs: 1350)
EPI/QuadBoss springs go up to 250LB rear or 1500 total pounds
Commander HighLifter springs:
Front: 165-180 LB (total pounds 1035)
Rear: 260-310 LB Progressive (total pounds 1710)
For 2.25" ID springs, such as those on the Commander, the highest seems to be around 250 LB/Inch. Rear Commander springs can reportedly be used on the front Commander shocks. You can use 2.5" springs with adapters for a higher spring rate but that is an added cost and I don't feel it is necessary.
The setup I chose to use and what I have on order are the EPI or QuadBoss (appear the same, they are probably cheaper Chinese steel) 250 LB springs which I will put on the front. I think you could use 225 LB springs without issue as well but for the same price I found some 250 LB springs and decided why not? The rear I chose to use were the HighLifter springs which were similar to stock initial weights and then moved up 50 LB as they are progressive. My goal is to turn the preload down in the rear to soften the ride without sacrificing weight carrying capacity. I included the Fox shock rates as a comparison. I think their shocks are much stronger than stock and provide good valving allowing them to keep a total overall lower rate than that of the stock Pioneer. I split the difference when settling on the 250 LB springs which overall will have a higher total weight than stock but the average spring rate, (again assuming a progressive spring being 50% of each weight) still being lower than stock.
I will report back on my findings with photos of the springs, CV angles, height measurements and a real world usage report. I have done a lot of research here in springs and shocks to find the best combination. For those of you who don't care about going cheap and want a good quality shock such as from Fox and want longer suspension travel, this information is also for you. Now you can lift your Pioneer by using quality shocks. How? Buy the Fox shocks (or your aftermarket preference) for a Commander!
My goal is to find replacement springs and shocks that provide added capacity and lack of bottoming. What I also wanted to accomplish was to get lift within specifications of the lift kits on the market. The one I used to compare it to was the StrongMade lift kit as that is what I had handy. The other requirements I had with replacing the shocks was to also have a more quality ride and longer suspension travel but all at a reasonable price.
I have been able to get the stock spring rates for the dual rate shocks. In finding this info, I noticed that the springs are not the problem in the stock suspension, the shocks are. They are sprung VERY heavy for a stock machine, heavier than most machine rear shocks are! The numbers that Honda gave me were in Newtons per MM of travel so all numbers I gave are rounded when converted to Pounds per Inch.
Pioneer Stock:
Front: 206-328 LB/Inch (36N/mm then 57.5N/mm) Progressive
Rear: 260 LB/Inch (45.6N per mm)
Stock front:
1.25" eyelet shocks, 5.25" shock shaft travel
Shock Length: 19.25" eye to eye extended, 14" eye to eye fully compressed
Weight of the machine on the shocks Resting Compressed 17" eye to eye
11.25" resting clearance to frame on 27" BigHorn tires & StrongMade lift installed
Stock rear:
1.5" eyelet, ?" shock shaft travel
Shock Length: 18.5" eye to eye extended, ?" eye to eye fully compressed
Weight of the machine on the shocks resting compressed with preload set highest 16.75 eye to eye
12.5" resting clearance to frame on 27" BigHorn tires, NO lift installed, again preload highest
Now came the hard part of finding shocks that would fit in the eyelets and provide lift similar to those already on the market. I looked at a few shock options, Can-Am Commander XT 2011-2015 models and Polaris RZRs. I settled on the Commander as the shock eyelets were proper width and the length of the shocks were spot on to match the StrongMade lift. They are also adjustable front and rear for preload and a much larger shock body than stock. Both front and rear shocks are nearly identical, I am assuming only the valving is different. The shocks are gas charged unlike stock Pioneer shocks which are not and do not rebound on their own. The shocks are longer but so is the shock travel. I should gain (a rough guess) 2" of front and rear suspension travel while not allowing bottoming or tire rub as they should not compress further than stock. They will provide a constant lift, unlike the StrongMade lift kit which doesn't do much for the front when there is weight on it, this is mostly due to the angle change when the lift is installed allowing for the wheels to put more leverage on the shocks causing a need for a heavier spring to avoid bottoming (which is the problem I had). Both stock and the Commander shocks have rubber bump stops on the shock shaft.
Commander Stock:
Front: 137-162.7 LB Progressive
Rear: 200 LB
The shock eyelets are 1.25" and 6" shock shaft travel
Both shocks are 20.1" eye to eye extended and 14.1" eye to eye fully compressed
I mounted the front shocks from the Commander, a 2013 XT, and found them to work great. Suspension travel was increased and they were smooth although a little soft for me. I did not notice any bottoming but I also did not get a chance to beat on them before deciding to go with a heavier spring. I compared them to aftermarket and stock Pioneer spring weights to find the ideal numbers and ordered what I thought would be the best combination of spring weights. It is not just the spring rate that needs to be calculated but also the overall usable spring. For example, if a stock Pioneer had 5" of shock travel and the Commander has 6", you have gained 1" of shock travel. If the spring is 200 LB then you gain that much in overall spring during full compression. Therefore, in theory, you could use a lighter spring while retaining the overall spring weight and get a softer ride. I tried to stay stock or higher but you could also play around with the rates yourself. The numbers I put were approximate total weights using shock shaft travel. With progressive springs I split shock travel length in half per rate (this is clearly an approximation and could be way off). The rear shock travel length of the Pioneer is still unknown and I just made the assumption it is the same as the front for now.
Pioneer Stock with 5.25" travel:
Front: 206-328 LB (total pounds 1402)
Rear: 260 LB (total pounds 1365)
Pioneer Fox shocks with 5.25" travel:
Front: 225 LB (total pounds 1181)
Rear: 300-350 LB Progressive (total pounds 1706)
Commander stock with 6" travel:
Front: 137-162.7 LB (total pounds 899)
Rear: 200 LB (total pounds 1200)
Commander Superatv springs:
Available in weights of up to 175LB (front)
and up to 225LB rear (total pounds of the 225 springs: 1350)
EPI/QuadBoss springs go up to 250LB rear or 1500 total pounds
Commander HighLifter springs:
Front: 165-180 LB (total pounds 1035)
Rear: 260-310 LB Progressive (total pounds 1710)
For 2.25" ID springs, such as those on the Commander, the highest seems to be around 250 LB/Inch. Rear Commander springs can reportedly be used on the front Commander shocks. You can use 2.5" springs with adapters for a higher spring rate but that is an added cost and I don't feel it is necessary.
The setup I chose to use and what I have on order are the EPI or QuadBoss (appear the same, they are probably cheaper Chinese steel) 250 LB springs which I will put on the front. I think you could use 225 LB springs without issue as well but for the same price I found some 250 LB springs and decided why not? The rear I chose to use were the HighLifter springs which were similar to stock initial weights and then moved up 50 LB as they are progressive. My goal is to turn the preload down in the rear to soften the ride without sacrificing weight carrying capacity. I included the Fox shock rates as a comparison. I think their shocks are much stronger than stock and provide good valving allowing them to keep a total overall lower rate than that of the stock Pioneer. I split the difference when settling on the 250 LB springs which overall will have a higher total weight than stock but the average spring rate, (again assuming a progressive spring being 50% of each weight) still being lower than stock.
I will report back on my findings with photos of the springs, CV angles, height measurements and a real world usage report. I have done a lot of research here in springs and shocks to find the best combination. For those of you who don't care about going cheap and want a good quality shock such as from Fox and want longer suspension travel, this information is also for you. Now you can lift your Pioneer by using quality shocks. How? Buy the Fox shocks (or your aftermarket preference) for a Commander!
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From what I see, you will gain approximately 2.5" in the front and 3-3.5" in the rear. I compared it side by side with the StrongMade lift kit and find it to be nearly identical in overall height. The front was the same at full droop but with the strongmade kit once you set the ATV down it compresses much further because it effectively lowers the spring rate by changing the angle of the shock attachment making it softer in the front. This leaves little gain in overall front lift while on the ground. With the Commander shocks you are keeping the stock attachment points so the lift is retained when full weight is on the ground. You also gain travel because not only are the shock bodies longer but the shock travel is approximately 3/4" longer as well. That doesn't seem like a lot but again when you factor in the angle of the suspension you'll gain around 2" of travel. 1" longer shock does not equate to 1" of lift. It is not a simple 1 to 1 ratio, in our application the ratio is more like 1:2.5 Your actual resting height gained will also depend on the spring rate used. A softer spring will give you less resting height while a stiffer spring will give you more resting height. This is a trade off because you will lose the downward travel of the tire at rest which is needed for proper articulation, you don't want your shocks at full extension all the time or the wheel will not keep constant contact with the ground. The 250 LB springs I chose for the front could be too heavy and I would actually have a harsher ride with reduced traction if that is the case. The rear Commander shock is approximately .1" longer than the lift given by the StrongMade brackets. That should be negligible.
Edit: Looking at the numbers, 2/3 of the gained height is in suspension travel. The remaining 1/3 gained is in shock body.
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I am still in need of the rear shock shaft travel measurement, including the bump stop, if anyone has a disassembled shock handy. I disassembled the front and have no desire to take apart my rear shocks now as it is a pain. I need this measurement to verify that at full compression I won't have rubbing problems in the rear. I shouldn't have any issues and am not terribly worried about it because of how much longer the Commander shock is over the stock one.
CumminsPusher
Just a Honda doing Honda things.
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Club Contributor
From what I see, you will gain approximately 2.5" in the front and 3-3.5" in the rear. I compared it side by side with the StrongMade lift kit and find it to be nearly identical in overall height. The front was the same at full droop but with the strongmade kit once you set the ATV down it compresses much further because it effectively lowers the spring rate by changing the angle of the shock attachment making it softer in the front. This leaves little gain in overall front lift while on the ground. With the Commander shocks you are keeping the stock attachment points so the lift is retained when full weight is on the ground. You also gain travel because not only are the shock bodies longer but the shock travel is approximately 3/4" longer as well. That doesn't seem like a lot but again when you factor in the angle of the suspension you'll gain around 2" of travel. 1" longer shock does not equate to 1" of lift. It is not a simple 1 to 1 ratio, in our application the ratio is more like 1:2.5 Your actual resting height gained will also depend on the spring rate used. A softer spring will give you less resting height while a stiffer spring will give you more resting height. This is a trade off because you will lose the downward travel of the tire at rest which is needed for proper articulation, you don't want your shocks at full extension all the time or the wheel will not keep constant contact with the ground. The 250 LB springs I chose for the front could be too heavy and I would actually have a harsher ride with reduced traction if that is the case. The rear Commander shock is approximately .1" longer than the lift given by the StrongMade brackets. That should be negligible. Very good work!
Edit: Looking at the numbers, 2/3 of the gained height is in suspension travel. The remaining 1/3 gained is in shock body.
Did I mention overall cost of this is pretty cheap? Springs that I chose were $200. Shocks were take offs and also relatively inexpensive. Total cost for a set should be had around $300 or so. I have more into it as I have some extra shocks and springs laying around at this point. But for a lift, longer travel, better shocks and springs that's really cheap.
Make sure if you go the performance shock route you get the style with the body of the shock on the bottom or you may have an issue with axle clearance in the rear as there isn't much room there to spare for a spring.
Make sure if you go the performance shock route you get the style with the body of the shock on the bottom or you may have an issue with axle clearance in the rear as there isn't much room there to spare for a spring.
