1000R LiveValve Suspension

[DorkMissile]

Ok - i have tried giving my Talon the benefit of the doubt. Ive managed to put on about 350 miles over the last couple of weekends - and even though we have loosened up the preload a ton, and the cross over rings are up significantly in the rear (10 turns ) and the front (4 turns) and the thing is just unbearable to ride. 15mph is barely manageable over any kind of stutter bumps in any kind of trail riding.

Did anyone at Honda do any test riding?

Yea - I know I can spend some money for shock setup - but I am not trying to run the thing in the Baja 1000, just trying to do some trail riding.

LiveValve technology is great - can run over huge drop outs and moguls at 40, it works awesome, but in any kind of loose sand that has seen any traffic and it is unbearable.

 

[CID]

My rear cross over rings are raised 20 turns on my standard R (15 on the fronts), I removed the swaybar links and tied the bar up (significant improvement unless you're cornering at speed), and dropped my tire pressures from 16 to 12 F&R. I'd be disappointed if I had stepped up to the Live Valve and got that kind of performance too (not available when I bought).

Put cable ties on each tender spring so you'll know if you're coil binding. My left rear with cross overs raised 20 turns, as far as I can go. (Not sure about Live Valve differences)

 

[PaulF]

Ok - i have tried giving my Talon the benefit of the doubt. Ive managed to put on about 350 miles over the last couple of weekends - and even though we have loosened up the preload a ton, and the cross over rings are up significantly in the rear (10 turns ) and the front (4 turns) and the thing is just unbearable to ride. 15mph is barely manageable over any kind of stutter bumps in any kind of trail riding.

Did anyone at Honda do any test riding?

Yea - I know I can spend some money for shock setup - but I am not trying to run the thing in the Baja 1000, just trying to do some trail riding.

LiveValve technology is great - can run over huge drop outs and moguls at 40, it works awesome, but in any kind of loose sand that has seen any traffic and it is unbearable.

Join the club . A lot of the harsh ride is due to the stiffness of the shocks. You can improve it a little with some adjustments.

Contrary to popular believe, loosening up the preload will not improve the ride, it will only lower the machine.

If you loosened the preload 5 turns and raised the crossover rings 10 turns, you really only raised the crossover 5 turns, not 10. If you are going to loosen the preload, you must raise the crossover the same amount just to get back to square one.

10/4 turns on the crossover is really nothing on an R and will not improve the ride much. 20/10 is a good starting point.

Before I changed my springs, I was able to get a pretty good ride as follows. I suggest you put it back to stock and try...

1. Leave the preload stock, there is no reason to change it unless you want to raise or lower the machine (and I suggest you don't, especially with the LV).
2. Raise the crossover rings 20 turns in the rear and 10 in the front. I was able to go to 24 in the rear without coil bind (don't remember the front) but the LV might have different springs.
3. Put a wire tie on each upper spring, go for a good ride that will compress the suspension and check for coil bind. If the wire tie breaks, you have coil bind and went too far.
4. Raise crossovers a couple turns at a time until the wire tie breaks, then back off 1 turn. This will give you the softest spring for the most travel and soften up the "washboard" rides.
5. Disconnect the sway bar if possible. The sway bar is transferring wheel movement from side to side and makes a rough ride worse. It will cause a little body roll but you will get used to it. I believe the LV will actually minimize it for you.

 

[DorkMissile]

Well let me ask - if we are running the crossover rings all the way to borderline coil-bind, then why not just run one single spring with one rate?

I guess I am flabbergasted that nobody at Honda trail rode one of these machines?

I mean over the weekend I was riding with some friends - one of their 80 year old fathers has a new CF Moto 800 Utility machine, and in the chatter bumps I couldn't come close to keeping up with him

Yea - you can pound a 2 foot mogul at 40mph, but you can't go 10 mph over any kind of chatter bumps

 

[PaulF]

Well let me ask - if we are running the crossover rings all the way to borderline coil-bind, then why not just run one single spring with one rate?

Because for instance, you will hit the crossover at about 3/4 compressed travel. So (with the stock R springs) for the first 3/4, you are at 125 lbs and when you hit the crossovers at about 3/4 travel, you are at 250 lbs, this will help avoid bottom outs when you need it. The higher the crossover, the longer you are on the soft springs and the more comfortable the ride BUT, the bottom out resistance will be reduced.

I guess I am flabbergasted that nobody at Honda trail rode one of these machines?

Honda did extensive testing but one size doesn't fit all. AND, where I have my suspension set up, the car will not pass the dynamic lateral stability test required by the CPSC (or a host of other required tests) so Honda has it's hands tied on that one. Most sport machines are rough at slow speeds over choppy ground due to the nature of sport suspensions, some worse than others.

I mean over the weekend I was riding with some friends - one of their 80 year old fathers has a new CF Moto 800 Utility machine, and in the chatter bumps I couldn't come close to keeping up with him

Yea - you can pound a 2 foot mogul at 40mph, but you can't go 10 mph over any kind of chatter bumps

You are comparing apples to oranges and you most likely KILLED the CF Moto over everything else. The R is not optimized for the type of riding you are complaining about. It cannot be good at everything all at the same time, that is impossible.

You can reduce the choppy ride but you will sacrifice high speed. If that doesn't bother you then follow my suggestions and give it a try. You have nothing to lose but a little time adjusting some rings, removing the sway links and zip tying up the sway bar. I think you will be quite surprised how much a little adjusting in the right direction will improve the ride.

 

[DorkMissile]

The scenario you describe (3/4 travel on the dual springs, top 1/4 travel on just the lower spring) does not match the previous post where you are suggesting to run the crossover rings 20 turns up with 24 turns up being coil bind. That leaves 4 turns of travel where you would be riding on the higher spring rate. Which is a lot less than 1/4 of the travel.

Running the rings that high up is pretty much just running one spring rate (the combined rate of the two springs) all the way up, and just using the rings to keep from breaking the tender spring.

With stacked dual 250lbs springs that setup pretty is pretty much like having a single rate 125lb spring for 95% of the travel, with 250lbs at the last 5%. To me you would be better off with a break over point of about 75/25% with a 175lb initial rate and 225lbs over the last 4” of travel

As far as the application goes - I realize there has to be some compromise for Everything from rider weight to terrain, but everyone will ride low speed with some rough areas so you can get out to the good areas where you can ride faster.

As far as the CF Moto goes - short of being able to carry 4-5mph more top speed, they could go everywhere I could with backs and necks that were substantially less sore. We would be following them and watching how much they were bouncing around vs how much we were bouncing around and it was dramatically better for them at cruising speeds.

 

[Hometeam]

Just because the people in the CF Moto went everywhere you went in your Talon doesn't mean the CF Moto can go everywhere and do everything that the Talon can do....it means it can do everything you are doing with it! Just saying the Talon out preforms the CF in every category but maybe going 3 mi per hour. Which I still have a hard time with because I rock crawl at slow and fast speed and never have any troubles with my talon. I also know that it is rougher at slow speeds because it can do everything I want it to do at high speeds. Like Paul said all factory suspensions are technically rough or are exchanging one terrain for another because you can't have a one setup covers all. And then you throw in passing the regulation test with the amount of cargo they say they can hold. I feel like a lot of people want a Talon (or a sport side by side) because they feel it is the fastest coolest thing out but the reality is they really just want a utility vehicle to ride on trails and have no intention of really pushing the side by side to the point of needing a sport one. So they are left with disappointment in certain areas....

 

[PaulF]

The scenario you describe (3/4 travel on the dual springs, top 1/4 travel on just the lower spring) does not match the previous post where you are suggesting to run the crossover rings 20 turns up with 24 turns up being coil bind. That leaves 4 turns of travel where you would be riding on the higher spring rate. Which is a lot less than 1/4 of the travel.

Running the rings that high up is pretty much just running one spring rate (the combined rate of the two springs) all the way up, and just using the rings to keep from breaking the tender spring.

Your responses tells me that you misunderstand how a true dual rate shock with crossovers works. I will use the stock R rear settings (not sure if this pertains to the LV because I do not know the spring rates or settings)...

• Tender coil bind and hitting the crossover ring do the exact same thing, it transitions you from 125 lbs to 250. The crossovers are there to make it adjustable and make sure you don't coil bind because the type of spring used is not meant to bind (the X does bind, it does not have crossover rings).
• The stock setting is about 45% crossover. Per Fox calculations in their manuals/instructions (not my guessing) you need to move the crossover rings up about 1.5 inches to get to 75% crossover. There are 14 threads per inch on the shock so to get 1.5 inches, you must turn the ring 21 turns.

With stacked dual 250lbs springs that setup pretty is pretty much like having a single rate 125lb spring for 95% of the travel, with 250lbs at the last 5%. To me you would be better off with a break over point of about 75/25% with a 175lb initial rate and 225lbs over the last 4” of travel

This is impossible with the stock springs so I assume you mean to change the springs to accomplish this. And what you propose would make the ride even WORSE. To soften the ride, you would want a softer combined rate and then a stiffer main spring to avoid bottom outs. For instance, the Shock Therapy springs include a softer and longer tender spring for a plusher ride throughout most of the travel and and a stiffer main spring for the last little bit to help with bottom out.

 

[DorkMissile]

Just because the people in the CF Moto went everywhere you went in your Talon doesn't mean the CF Moto can go everywhere and do everything that the Talon can do....it means it can do everything you are doing with it! Just saying the Talon out preforms the CF in every category but maybe going 3 mi per hour. Which I still have a hard time with because I rock crawl at slow and fast speed and never have any troubles with my talon. I also know that it is rougher at slow speeds because it can do everything I want it to do at high speeds. Like Paul said all factory suspensions are technically rough or are exchanging one terrain for another because you can't have a one setup covers all. And then you throw in passing the regulation test with the amount of cargo they say they can hold. I feel like a lot of people want a Talon (or a sport side by side) because they feel it is the fastest coolest thing out but the reality is they really just want a utility vehicle to ride on trails and have no intention of really pushing the side by side to the point of needing a sport one. So they are left with disappointment in certain areas....

Well just understand we are trying to just trail ride, and rode with a RZR XP1000 and a Yamaha YXZ, both all stock. They had absolutely no trouble riding comfortably at 30-40mph. These would all be compirable machines in the same class.

Mind you I have had multiple ATVs (been riding Honda since a new 88' TRX250R), dirt bikes, and snowmobiles since the 80s. These particular trails around Munising, MI I have been riding since the early 2000's when my friend's parents retired and bought their place up there. There is nothing uncommon about the trails there, look just like the trails I ride close to home in Minnesota and western Wisconsin. 20-30mph speeds. But what is throwing the talon for a loop is chatter bumps. 6-8" high. They litter the trails all over the midwest.

These three different machines just hop right over them. Yea, they know they are there, but it is dramatically different than what I am dealing with. I either have to crawl along at barely over an idle (which is slow going when you have miles and miles of them) or blast them near wide open (which is incredibly dangerous). This is not disappointment, it is not even in the ball park.

The comment about having to pass the roll-over certification is the only thing that makes sense as they need all that spring pressure to get a better rating.

 

[Hometeam]

Well just understand we are trying to just trail ride, and rode with a RZR XP1000 and a Yamaha YXZ, both all stock. They had absolutely no trouble riding comfortably at 30-40mph. These would all be compirable machines in the same class.

Mind you I have had multiple ATVs (been riding Honda since a new 88' TRX250R), dirt bikes, and snowmobiles since the 80s. These particular trails around Munising, MI I have been riding since the early 2000's when my friend's parents retired and bought their place up there. There is nothing uncommon about the trails there, look just like the trails I ride close to home in Minnesota and western Wisconsin. 20-30mph speeds. But what is throwing the talon for a loop is chatter bumps. 6-8" high. They litter the trails all over the midwest.

These three different machines just hop right over them. Yea, they know they are there, but it is dramatically different than what I am dealing with. I either have to crawl along at barely over an idle (which is slow going when you have miles and miles of them) or blast them near wide open (which is incredibly dangerous). This is not disappointment, it is not even in the ball park.

The comment about having to pass the roll-over certification is the only thing that makes sense as they need all that spring pressure to get a better rating.

I totally get it!! I'm not trying to come across wrong here at you! But I do think a lot of people think that they bought a sports side by side and it should handle amazing at high speeds and also go super slow and smooth over bumps. I feel like that's like buying a Porsche and thinking it should handle a brick road like a Buick when I'm cruising around town. I have owned high performance 3-wheelers, dirt bikes, 4-wheelers, Jeeps, and tons of sports cars (even loads of mountain biking) and I can not think of one suspension that I didn't mess with/change to my liking and riding style. I always assume I am going to have to set it up to "me"! I do understand that there are some machines that come from the factory with a softer ride. I do have a YXZ also and that suspension has been adjusted to be super plush. It didn't come from the factory that way though. Now the difference between the YXZ and the Talon is the YXZ came with a much nicer shock with loads of adjustments to it. I do wish Honda would have put a higher end shock with more adjustment so we could individually tailor it to the way we want it. Anyway I am taking my suspension to G-Force in Tennessee and they are putting springs, valving, and high low adjusters on it. I hope you get your suspension figured out!

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Your responses tells me that you misunderstand how a true dual rate shock with crossovers works. I will use the stock R rear settings (not sure if this pertains to the LV because I do not know the spring rates or settings)...

• Tender coil bind and hitting the crossover ring do the exact same thing, it transitions you from 125 lbs to 250. The crossovers are there to make it adjustable and make sure you don't coil bind because the type of spring used is not meant to bind (the X does bind, it does not have crossover rings).
• The stock setting is about 45% crossover. Per Fox calculations in their manuals/instructions (not my guessing) you need to move the crossover rings up about 1.5 inches to get to 75% crossover. There are 14 threads per inch on the shock so to get 1.5 inches, you must turn the ring 21 turns.

This is impossible with the stock springs so I assume you mean to change the springs to accomplish this. And what you propose would make the ride even WORSE. To soften the ride, you would want a softer combined rate and then a stiffer main spring to avoid bottom outs. For instance, the Shock Therapy springs include a softer and longer tender spring for a plusher ride throughout most of the travel and and a stiffer main spring for the last little bit to help with bottom out.

I’m wondering if this is just a big cast and reel session? 😂😂😂

 

[PaulF]

I’m wondering if this is just a big cast and reel session? 😂😂😂

I was starting to think so.

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[Smitty335]

I was starting to think so.

You can lead a horse to water...

What ever happened to the progressive wound springs that we used to run on the rear shock and in the forks on dirt bikes?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

What ever happened to the progressive wound springs that we used to run on the rear shock and in the forks on dirt bikes?

You can put any 3" ID spring on the shock that you want to. They are the same springs used on 2.5" coilover shocks in the offroad world. Eibach, Pac, Progressive, Hyperco, Afco, Blue Coil ect will all fit and come in different lengths and rates to tune as you wish. All of the above mentioned companies make progressive rate springs for our shocks.

 

[DorkMissile]

Well bought a 8 spring set from Bandit - installed per instructions and set ride height at 13.5" Front and 13" rear and it rides a hell of a lot better. Rode everything from washboard to 2' moguls and it is pretty good.

Now if we could just get the damn LiveValve warning light to stay out