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Can-Am 50" SxS

Discussion in 'Othere SXS Brands.' started by Chooglin, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. Chooglin

    Chooglin Well-Known Member
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  2. DG Rider

    DG Rider Active Member

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    Was coming to talk about this...looks like you beat me to it!

    Early speculation was a ACE type single seater or a 50" based on a pic leaked on the interwebs, but a pic on Can-Am's site from inside shows this clearly is a 2 person machine...

    NewMav.jpg

    I DO NOT like that cage over the windshield area.

    The teaser vids are all but useless from getting a peek...



     
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  3. Chooglin

    Chooglin Well-Known Member
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    Definitely a 2 seater , I am curious to see if this has a front diff lock. As far as I know , none of the Can-Am sxs's have a front diff. Lock on them!
     
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  4. JWB

    JWB Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see the spec's on this.
     
  5. DG Rider

    DG Rider Active Member

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    5 days...
     
  6. DG Rider

    DG Rider Active Member

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    I don't think any of them do. They are into that Visco-lock front diff thingy. Depending on whom you ask, it works great, or not at all. Definitely NOT a locker replacement, but the aftermarket has those for them. Probably works fine for the way most are driven.
     
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  7. Crow_Hunter

    Crow_Hunter Well-Known Member

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    Not from the factory. Just the Visco-lok There are two options in the aftermarket. Either an "Aussie Locker" or an electrical one that is similar to the Yamaha design.

    If you are in mud/snow and you stay in the throttle, the Visco works fine. It is better than the Honda I4WD because it doesn't rely on braking the spinning wheel to engage. So you aren't wasting power to the wheels converting Kinetic Energy into Thermal Energy with the brakes. It uses a fluid coupling that forces the wheels to turn together when they spin at different speeds. Sort of like the Pioneer 700 torque convertor.

    It is inferior though to a true locker, especially in crawling situations because you really can't stay in the throttle to keep them locked together without tearing something up or driving off something.

    I read some stuff that a BRP engineer had posted that said they designed it around use in the snow and to have a locking option while still allowing easy turning before the widespread application of power steering. Their testers didn't like a locked front in normal 4X4 usage so they actually spend more money buying those Visco-lok front diffs from an automotive company than if they just put in a lockable front diff like Yamaha/Kawasaki/Arctic Cat/Honda/etc. Maybe they will eventually cave and put a Yamaha type system in. But I have a sneaking suspicion that it would actually hurt sales more than it would help in the "real world" vs on a Offroad forum. That is why Honda is doing the I4WD and Polaris has stuck with the Hilliard design forever. Most people aren't really going to benefit from a true locker and would prefer something that only kicks in when needed to give a little extra help.

    I don't like it but mainly because eventually the fluid needs to be changed and you have to replace the whole diff. If/when that happens on my Defender, I will probably just replace it with a locker. So far I haven't had any problems even in fairly deep mud and some light rock crawling at Turkey Bay.

    I am glad to see someone else is making a 50" machine. I often wish I had gotten a smaller machine. I wish someone would make something like a Kawi Mule SX 4X4 XC that wasn't winding out at 25 MPH.
     
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  8. lee

    lee Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain
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    Are you sure about that?
    Maybe you could post up your test data or a YouTube.

    Not trying to be an ass (yes I am) but it sounds like a 'mind exercise' which is worth about what is invested in it.
    After all when I do the mind game thing the BRP viscolock lets one wheel slip while the vehicle loses momentum then it locks and is trying to restart a stopped vehicle.
    The I4WD is monitoring the wheel speed.
    As one wheel starts to accelerate and the other starts to decelerate the computer is applying the brakes before everything grinds to a halt.
    What we need is a real A to B comparison in real world applications.

    (only sort of related story that I am going to tell anyway)
    I knew a guy that had one of the old Honda CR-Vs with the 'dual pump four wheel drive'.
    It was basically a viscolok arranged front to rear.
    He had issues getting his jon boat up the ramp is it was at all wet.
    As he let the clutch out the front wheels would not have traction then the rear would lock in and the engine would stall.
    Finally he figured out to rev the engine to 3500 rpm and dump the clutch.
    The front wheels would chirp and spin than the rear would kick in and the whole thing would launch up the ramp.
    It wasn't graceful but it worked.
     
  9. hondabob

    hondabob Well-Known Member

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    The 50 inch UTV's don't have much suspension performance and the ground clearance is low. The new Maverick looks like a 58 incher with the wide dash. The RZR, Trail Cat, and Honda 500 all have the seats close together. I expect the drive train will be like the Defender with a 1000cc V-twin but with a 90 inch wheelbase. The Can-Am quality is way better then Polaris so the RZR 900 will lose sales. If they have an 800 version the 570 will lose sales. I hope I don't buy another belt drive but this Maverick may be tempting. I can see Crow and DG buying the new Maverick. If I buy one I expect Honda would come out with their sport models the next month.
     
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  10. DG Rider

    DG Rider Active Member

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    Just means you'd buy 2 SxS's in 2 months!!

    If its 58", I'm fine with that. The bigger and bigger trend is not something I embrace but is the trend the market is taking.

    BUT, I'm not convinced its that wide. There is a spy pic floating around on the web of the rear sticking out from under a tent. In that pic is also one of those milk crates. Using the most common size and eyeballing it, looks to be right around 50".

    But...if its wider, that doesn't necessarily affect my decision.
     
    #10 DG Rider, Sep 16, 2017 at 1:19 AM
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017 at 4:25 AM
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  11. DG Rider

    DG Rider Active Member

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    Here it is...
    IMG_0214.PNG

    Most of those crates are like 20" wide, so if you visualize it across the back...it looks awfully like a 50"er to me. I could be that they will take a page from PoPo and make a 60" version with flares as well...
     
  12. ohanacreek

    ohanacreek Jack of all trades, Master of none.
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    Those tents are generally 10' square....
     
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  13. Crow_Hunter

    Crow_Hunter Well-Known Member

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    I am not trying to be an ass (but I am), if your fundamental understanding of mechanical systems leads you to believe that engagement of a viscous coupling (like a torque convertor) results in a loss of momentum while applying the brakes does not, my trying to explain to you how they work wouldn't do much good for either of us.

    Just be careful driving a car with an automatic transmission, the right most pedal won't result in a loss of momentum...
     
  14. PistonHonda

    PistonHonda Top Club Contributor
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    I do like me some Rotax!
     
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  15. lee

    lee Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain
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    To be sure, I understand the logic of what you are saying.
    But have you tested them back to back?
     
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  16. DG Rider

    DG Rider Active Member

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    I have.

    My conclusion: Diet Dr Pepper really does taste like regular Dr Pepper.
     
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  17. DG Rider

    DG Rider Active Member

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    Exclusive content email has The last teaser...

     
  18. lee

    lee Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain
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    Narrow gate says a lot with out saying anything.
    (If you have never ridden a 50" trail it probably means nothing)
     
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  19. tig

    tig Active Member

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    Hah, you don't have a clue how Visco Lok works do you? It is not a viscous coupling like a torque converter. From GKN (the manufacturer) the system works like this:
    >A self-contained silicone-fluid filled reservoir and shear pump generates a hydraulic pressure proportional to a speed difference across the axle.
    >The speed difference between the feed disc and the fluid filled channel of the pump disc and the resulting fluid shear forces moves the fluid from the reservoir to the apply piston.
    >The hydraulic pressure creates an axial force via the apply piston, compressing the clutch pack.
    (Source with pictures: http://www.resyl.net/atvfiles/ViscoLok-engl.pdf)

    You lose momentum with the viscous system because it takes significant rotation of the slipping tire(s) before the fluid pressure builds up and the friction surfaces engage, then when wheel speed normalizes across the front axle the "pull" you get from that wheel stops and you have to start over again (or keep spinning the other 3 wheels faster than the one wheel with traction). So in order to get the one wheel to pull you have to have the other 3 spinning. Seems like a good way to lose momentum, yeah? It's jokingly called Crisco-lock for a reason.

    While you're right that in Honda's i4WD system some energy is lost to the brakes, it's gotta be less than the energy to spinning the other 3 wheels like the Can Am system since the Honda is computer controlled and in theory should react faster to preserve more vehicle momentum. It's worth noting that the Visco Lok still bleeds thermal energy in the clutches and in the shear fluid.

    Perhaps neither system is perfect, but there isn't any basis for your unequivocal statement that Visco Lok is better than i4WD.

    Probably we just need to get a member with an LE to line up and do some obstacle courses with a Defender. Until that happens it's impossible to say which system is actually "better".
     
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  20. rkwerner

    rkwerner Active Member

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    I'm sure that no matter what there will be cases where the i4wd is better and cases where the visco-lock is better.

    I am not the most familiar with either system but I am familiar with the 4wd system in the Honda Element which seems similar to the Can Am system and I am familiar with Toyota's Atrac (and locker) system which I believe is similar to the Honda i4wd.

    In my experience the visco-system will likely work very well in higher speed/rev applications (eg. desert running, ice, sand, mud) and the i4wd system will be great in the slower technical stuff (eg. rocks, roots).
     

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