Honda 390cc 2wd Trail Wagon Questions

[Texasmark]

Greetings,

I never worked on a SXS but am an avid mechanic with experience on most everything else. Questions primarily will be unique to the model listed in the title. I am doing an elderly lady friend (non-involved type lady friend..wink) a favor in fixing her machine. I downloaded pertinent manuals for reference.

Several questions to start:
1. Which specific forum deals with this machine? It's a 2010 or later per the date code on the Dana transaxle ID tag.
2. In the manuals it shows installation of the cogged drive belt. It says to "force" the belt over the pulley rather than having an idler wheel or something that you undo, install the belt, tension and tighten. Is that the way it's done in the real world?
3. Oil in the Dana 20833 Transaxle is stated as single viscosity 30 wt engine oil. Is that the correct oil or would multivis be better, and synthetic multivis better yet since she won't be changing the oil annually as suggested you can bet.
4. Who is a reliable/desirable online parts supplier?

Thanks in advance for your replies.
Mark

Update: Quick check reveals:

Battery isn't discharged it's dead. New battery.....no biggie.
Drive belt is coggedbut to my surprise no cogs in the drive line. So cogs represent a mechanism for keeping the belt cooled. What I think I see is a loose running belt when idling. As engine speed is increased the centrifugal clutch on the engine starts to close which clamps to the edge of the belt and causes it to move away from the transaxle shev causing friction on both ends to lock the engine to the transaxle.

The loose fittingbelt is in pristeen condition other than the sides where it contacts the shives and it's shiny there. Being so loose explains my first question about forcing the belt over the shives....won't be any forcing. This would explain her complaint that it doesn't pull very well to propel the vehicle and it's jerky when it does go. Getting the shine off the belt and a little belt dressing, plus some chemical cleaner on the shives should fix her up.

Last would be a changeout of the fluids and fix the windshield and she should be good to go.

What do you think?

 

[Montecresto]

Welcome Tex, I don't believe we have a trail wagon forum.

 

[lee]

@Texasmark welcome to the forum, but you are kind of in the wrong place.
However don't think that I am putting out an 'unwelcome' mat.
There are several companies that made small SxS and used a Honda utility engine.
No connection to Honda other than using a commercial engine.

Belts. The cogs in the belt are more about flexibility and heat generation, not transferring power.
They are dependent on the pulley gripping the sides to transfer power.
Also the pulleys are dependent on the correct width of the belt to engage correctly.
The sides of the belt wear over time, the manuals might give a service limit.
Sounds like a new belt is in order (just a guess).

As for putting the belt on it sounds like forcing it on is the official method.
I have an old Honda Odyssey with a belt drive.
Honda put 2 10mm threaded holes, you insert 2 bolts and it spreads the driven pulley apart making the belt easy to install.
I have forced the belt on the Odyssey, Put the transmission in neutral and pull the belt so it rolls the pulleys.

As for the oil, assume that Dana knows something.
Multi weight oil is intended for use in engines.
As the engine temp changes the oil changes viscosity.
The transaxle dose not get hot like the engine (hopefully) and synthetic would be a waste of money.

Anyway, good luck.
If you do find a good forum that is knowledgeable on these things let us know so we can help the next guy out.

 

[Texasmark]

@Texasmark welcome to the forum, but you are kind of in the wrong place.
However don't think that I am putting out an 'unwelcome' mat.
There are several companies that made small SxS and used a Honda utility engine.
No connection to Honda other than using a commercial engine.

Belts. The cogs in the belt are more about flexibility and heat generation, not transferring power.
They are dependent on the pulley gripping the sides to transfer power.
Also the pulleys are dependent on the correct width of the belt to engage correctly.
The sides of the belt wear over time, the manuals might give a service limit.
Sounds like a new belt is in order (just a guess).

As for putting the belt on it sounds like forcing it on is the official method.
I have an old Honda Odyssey with a belt drive.
Honda put 2 10mm threaded holes, you insert 2 bolts and it spreads the driven pulley apart making the belt easy to install.
I have forced the belt on the Odyssey, Put the transmission in neutral and pull the belt so it rolls the pulleys.

As for the oil, assume that Dana knows something.
Multi weight oil is intended for use in engines.
As the engine temp changes the oil changes viscosity.
The transaxle dose not get hot like the engine (hopefully) and synthetic would be a waste of money.

Anyway, good luck.
If you do find a good forum that is knowledgeable on these things let us know so we can help the next guy out.

 

[Texasmark]

Thanks both of you for your responses. I am moving along better than expected and looks like I got all those problems worked out today. Went after what I thought was a stuck choke cable and it turned out to be a stuck carburetor. First time I saw what others have referred to as ethanol problems. The carb butterflies, both choke and throttle were frozen. Dismantling I found ethanol remnants where we used to find varnish. This thing has apparently been sitting for a very long time.

What blew me away was that I went online to find a carb kit for it and would up with a whole carb for a super price. We'll see how it works out.

Have a happy holiday.

Mark

 

[Montecresto]

Thanks both of you for your responses. I am moving along better than expected and looks like I got all those problems worked out today. Went after what I thought was a stuck choke cable and it turned out to be a stuck carburetor. First time I saw what others have referred to as ethanol problems. The carb butterflies, both choke and throttle were frozen. Dismantling I found ethanol remnants where we used to find varnish. This thing has apparently been sitting for a very long time.

What blew me away was that I went online to find a carb kit for it and would up with a whole carb for a super price. We'll see how it works out.

Have a happy holiday.

Mark

You too, and good luck with that.

 

[Hondasxs]

Welcome @Texasmark,
I would love to help, But I had to look up a Trail Wagon just to see what it was.
Sure glad @lee had an idea.

PS, I will be moving this to the Othere SXS Brands. here in a bit.
Thanks.

 

[KevinSC]

Greetings,

I never worked on a SXS but am an avid mechanic with experience on most everything else. Questions primarily will be unique to the model listed in the title. I am doing an elderly lady friend (non-involved type lady friend..wink) a favor in fixing her machine. I downloaded pertinent manuals for reference.

Several questions to start:
1. Which specific forum deals with this machine? It's a 2010 or later per the date code on the Dana transaxle ID tag.
2. In the manuals it shows installation of the cogged drive belt. It says to "force" the belt over the pulley rather than having an idler wheel or something that you undo, install the belt, tension and tighten. Is that the way it's done in the real world?
3. Oil in the Dana 20833 Transaxle is stated as single viscosity 30 wt engine oil. Is that the correct oil or would multivis be better, and synthetic multivis better yet since she won't be changing the oil annually as suggested you can bet.
4. Who is a reliable/desirable online parts supplier?

Thanks in advance for your replies.
Mark

Update: Quick check reveals:

Battery isn't discharged it's dead. New battery.....no biggie.
Drive belt is coggedbut to my surprise no cogs in the drive line. So cogs represent a mechanism for keeping the belt cooled. What I think I see is a loose running belt when idling. As engine speed is increased the centrifugal clutch on the engine starts to close which clamps to the edge of the belt and causes it to move away from the transaxle shev causing friction on both ends to lock the engine to the transaxle.

The loose fittingbelt is in pristeen condition other than the sides where it contacts the shives and it's shiny there. Being so loose explains my first question about forcing the belt over the shives....won't be any forcing. This would explain her complaint that it doesn't pull very well to propel the vehicle and it's jerky when it does go. Getting the shine off the belt and a little belt dressing, plus some chemical cleaner on the shives should fix her up.

Last would be a changeout of the fluids and fix the windshield and she should be good to go.

What do you think?

If the belt is glazed, replace the belt and hang on to the old one for backup. As for the carb issue, I know that with small engines in lawn mowers we quit fixing and only replace as its usually 5-10 dollars more for a new carb. Also, run ethanol free gas and also run sea foam the first tank of fuel to get any remnants out of the tank. Lastly, I run sea foam every 4 or 5 tanks with all my lawn mowers and have had good success on ethanol fuel. Let us know how it pans out.

 

[KevinSC]

If the belt is glazed, replace the belt and hang on to the old one for backup. As for the carb issue, I know that with small engines in lawn mowers we quit fixing and only replace as its usually 5-10 dollars more for a new carb. Also, run ethanol free gas and also run sea foam the first tank of fuel to get any remnants out of the tank. Lastly, I run sea foam every 4 or 5 tanks with all my lawn mowers and have had good success on ethanol fuel. Let us know how it pans out.

Also I see that you state it is lose running, which means it's either stretched or needs an adjustment on the centrifugal clutch to tighten it, but usually when it is stretched you cannot save that belt and need to replace it. A glazed belt you can save to limp home on, a stretched is pretty much useless. And no, I am no mechanic, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

 

[Delton]

If the belt is glazed, replace the belt and hang on to the old one for backup. As for the carb issue, I know that with small engines in lawn mowers we quit fixing and only replace as its usually 5-10 dollars more for a new carb. Also, run ethanol free gas and also run sea foam the first tank of fuel to get any remnants out of the tank. Lastly, I run sea foam every 4 or 5 tanks with all my lawn mowers and have had good success on ethanol fuel. Let us know how it pans out.

Hey another Seafoam advocate! Awesome product. I've used it to literally unclog a pilot jet on a neighbor's Goldwing. Idled on 5 cyls. but accelerated fine. Used small gas tank 1/2 full and kept adding Seafoam til engine started to sputter. Worked like a charm. Great stuff.

 

[Texasmark]

Welcome @Texasmark,
I would love to help, But I had to look up a Trail Wagon just to see what it was.
Sure glad @lee had an idea.

PS, I will be moving this to the Othere SXS Brands. here in a bit.
Thanks.

Ok thanks. Little slow in answering....new site, new things to absorb. Will get there.

 

[Texasmark]

If the belt is glazed, replace the belt and hang on to the old one for backup. As for the carb issue, I know that with small engines in lawn mowers we quit fixing and only replace as its usually 5-10 dollars more for a new carb. Also, run ethanol free gas and also run sea foam the first tank of fuel to get any remnants out of the tank. Lastly, I run sea foam every 4 or 5 tanks with all my lawn mowers and have had good success on ethanol fuel. Let us know how it pans out.

Not familiar with the site just yet but I hope this answer gets viewed by all who were courteous enough to jump in on this topic.

Current Status, kinda long but may be of interest to folks with a similar situation:
1. Comment about new carb a few bucks more than a kit: WoW! Couldn't believe it. Found the exact carb for $18 with the gaskets for mounting to engine and air intake plus shipping at $30 total. It's on it's way.

2. Soaked the existing carb overnight after I posted here, in what I had handy, Acetone and mineral spirits solution. Prior to that, earlier in the day had bathed in aerosol Berryman's chem tool.
Carb was jammed up (to the point where neither butterfly would rotate nor would the float move, needle stuck too) with a light yellow crystalline substance which I presumed was ethanol's version of varnish. Next day I got all that off and fine wire and compressed air finished the process. The venturi tube, and jet was completely clogged shut.

3. Drained old fuel and replaced with fresh fuel with 2-3 oz SF per gallon. Got the engine started and started limbering it up. As time passed, it started limbering up nicely.

4. After understanding just how power is transferred from the engine to the differential, I felt that the belt was not in need of replacement; just had shiny sides which I learned was the connection points for this type drive. So, I took some 220 grit and took the shine off the edges (since they weren't fabric covered like some drive belts), and when finished applied a liberal amount of aerosol belt dressing and let it dry. Reinstalled the belt and replaced the covers.

5. Yesterday morning I started it and after half hour's running was able to get it to idle down to roughly 1000 (SWAG)...notice manual says 1400 so we will shoot for that today. Since the engine could now idle, I was able to shift into gear and get some road time on the machine.

6. Before I had been testing for more than 5 minutes, the seat belt came out and strapped me to the seat....I had to hang on to this baby; tires at 10 psig, rated max 12. In testing the ability of the belt to grasp the sheaves, I'd stop the machine and then stomp the drive pedal.....acceleration was stellar. Actually better than I wanted as the transmission didn't want to shift at a higher idle rpm telling me that the belt dressing was "too good" allowing the sheaves to grab the belt and turning the transmission input shaft when it should have been flopping idly.

7. So today I'll see if I've worn enough of the "sticky" off the belt to allow me to up the rpms to the recommended 1400 and get it to shift. Guessing that shifting these vehicles is a good thrust to get it done with the shift lever, no slow slide into gear????????????????? RESPONSES WELCOMED ON THIS NOTE.

Thanks for the interest and courteous replies.
Mark

 

[moparornocar]

Any pics of this machine. I just googled it and have never seen one before,

 

[KevinSC]

Any pics of this machine. I just googled it and have never seen one before,

You can find them at tractor supply. They are a glorified golf cart basically, but do ok for minor work around homes.

 

[Texasmark]

Any pics of this machine. I just googled it and have never seen one before,

Manuals - American LandMaster - American Made UTV & ATV

This seems to be the model or very near. Company is correct as is the engine and drive system.

 

[Texasmark]

You can find them at tractor supply. They are a glorified golf cart basically, but do ok for minor work around homes.

This is exactly what the current owner does with this machine. Her problem is that she doesn't use it enough and that usage is just putting around her 20 acres to keep it flushed out. Gas gets old, tires go flat, things deteriorate.

When I was a kid we lived in a South Texas town. The drive to most anything was 2-3 miles max at 30 mph or less. Car was a '51 Ford 2 door Custom, Fordomatic, flathead V8. Sometimes it would just get to running crummy. Only snake oil mama used was Winns Friction Proofing, said to keep the upper cylinder clean and lubed....have no idea as to what it was. Also back then 45k miles meant a valve job and 100k was a complete engine overhaul. (Compare that to what you get out of today's engine technology and petroleum products.)

"Anyhew" Jr. (me) would periodically take it out (sneak it out) onto the Gulf Freeway (what is now the interstate between Houston and Galveston) and give that sucker a run for it's money. After 15-20 minutes of that about once a month, it got back to normal and ran just fine.

My neighbor's machine needed some of that. I got it fixed a couple of days ago and after a sizeable dose of Sea Foam in fresh gas, I have been romping around and it's ready to go. When I take it back I'm going to tell her that she needs to act like a kid again and take it out on the dirt road adjacent to her house and hammer down on it a few times periodically. Wink.

 

[Texasmark]

Greetings,

I never worked on a SXS but am an avid mechanic with experience on most everything else. Questions primarily will be unique to the model listed in the title. I am doing an elderly lady friend (non-involved type lady friend..wink) a favor in fixing her machine. I downloaded pertinent manuals for reference.

Several questions to start:
1. Which specific forum deals with this machine? It's a 2010 or later per the date code on the Dana transaxle ID tag.
2. In the manuals it shows installation of the cogged drive belt. It says to "force" the belt over the pulley rather than having an idler wheel or something that you undo, install the belt, tension and tighten. Is that the way it's done in the real world?
3. Oil in the Dana 20833 Transaxle is stated as single viscosity 30 wt engine oil. Is that the correct oil or would multivis be better, and synthetic multivis better yet since she won't be changing the oil annually as suggested you can bet.
4. Who is a reliable/desirable online parts supplier?

Thanks in advance for your replies.
Mark

Update: Quick check reveals:

Battery isn't discharged it's dead. New battery.....no biggie.
Drive belt is coggedbut to my surprise no cogs in the drive line. So cogs represent a mechanism for keeping the belt cooled. What I think I see is a loose running belt when idling. As engine speed is increased the centrifugal clutch on the engine starts to close which clamps to the edge of the belt and causes it to move away from the transaxle shev causing friction on both ends to lock the engine to the transaxle.

The loose fittingbelt is in pristeen condition other than the sides where it contacts the shives and it's shiny there. Being so loose explains my first question about forcing the belt over the shives....won't be any forcing. This would explain her complaint that it doesn't pull very well to propel the vehicle and it's jerky when it does go. Getting the shine off the belt and a little belt dressing, plus some chemical cleaner on the shives should fix her up.

Last would be a changeout of the fluids and fix the windshield and she should be good to go.

What do you think?

 

[Texasmark]

Back to the drive system engineering. In thinking more about the way this thing was designed, this occurred to me:

When at low rpms the centrifugal clutch is disengaged and the belt is flopping loose as the engine shaft rotates, regardless as to what gear you have selected in the transmission. Increasing rpms starts the clutch to push the sheaves towards the belt and in time they make contact.

The belt is 1.1" wide so that once making contact, the bowl shaped sheaves have 1.1 inch of movement toward each other that can be used in applying compression that they can exert as rpms increase and the bowls are squeezed tighter together.

Since the sheaves are bowl shaped, upon making contact with the belt at low rpms, close to the diameter of the drive shaft, the pulley ratio between the drive and driven sheaves on the transmission is high, like the circumference of the drive is maybe 3" and the transmission is a fixed 10" (for some numbers) so the gear ratio is 3.3:1. This gives you low rpms and high torque for climbing hills at slow speeds.

As the rpms increase, the clutch squeezes the sheaves closer together and that forces the belt further away from the drive shaft which increases the circumference of the drive forcing the gear ratio to be reduced as engine rpms increase. So at WOT you may have a 1:1 where you want the wheels spinning at a high rate but don't need much torque to keep them spinning.

The problem I see with this setup is that the edges of the belt have to be able to bond with the edges of the sheaves at low compression pressures at low speeds. Slick sides on the belt and you have jerking problems, or the inability to climb hills at low speeds. That's the problem she was having and 220 grid sanding of the belt edges and belt dressing cured.

I never looked into the physics of hydrostatic drives, like you have on lawn mowers and tractors, but they too have high torque at low rpms which lowers as rpms, fluid flow, and tire rotations increase.

Interesting.

 

[moparornocar]

Manuals - American LandMaster - American Made UTV & ATV

This seems to be the model or very near. Company is correct as is the engine and drive system.

Well isn't that a cute little thing. With a Honda commercial engine in it I bet that thing will run 20mph forever.

 

[Texasmark]

Well isn't that a cute little thing. With a Honda commercial engine in it I bet that thing will run 20mph forever.

I have been working the sore muscles out of it. Part of that is just what you said....find some smooth pasture goose it and hang on. Runs really good. When I take it back to the neighbor she will follow me to her house. I'll get her to clock it.