Jackson Turbo Talon with aftermarket exhaust? Anyone?

[Slow-Poke]

Hi Folks.. New to the forum and to the SXS experience. (I got too old for ATV's).. I Researched SXS's for about a year before I settled on the Talon R. I probably would not have spent the money right away for the Jackson kit, but found a deal that I couldn't pass up. Here is my question.. Jackson has said that you need to run the stock muffler with the kit, or it could cause "Drivability" issues. I'm wondering if anyone has tried a lighter, better sounding exhaust with the turbo. I have a feeling Jackson may only be saying that because of liability with emissions. With every other turbo system that I know of, a better flowing exhaust is a good thing. Opinions?

 

[NTCPrezJB]

Hi Folks.. New to the forum and to the SXS experience. (I got too old for ATV's).. I Researched SXS's for about a year before I settled on the Talon R. I probably would not have spent the money right away for the Jackson kit, but found a deal that I couldn't pass up. Here is my question.. Jackson has said that you need to run the stock muffler with the kit, or it could cause "Drivability" issues. I'm wondering if anyone has tried a lighter, better sounding exhaust with the turbo. I have a feeling Jackson may only be saying that because of liability with emissions. With every other turbo system that I know of, a better flowing exhaust is a good thing. Opinions?

It is specifically tuned to the stock exhaust. It is definitely an emissions/carb compliance reason. Rumor has it there is a race only version in the works.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Sweet user name.... 😁

@MDFMac would be the guy to ask about this. On another site he mentioned turning up the boost on his Jackson kit and after tuning it, swapping on an EVO exhaust to see if he could gain any more power.. He said it ran very lean and the fuel system wasn't able to keep up. Injectors and pump were at their limits. He is now selling the exhaust system on another site. Lol

 

[HondaTech]

Its possible, my GM has spoken to several guys who are tuning the Jackson kit with generic bullet mufflers. This is probably what were planning on doing this winter in preparation for next race season. Right now we're waiting on our spare engine to show.

Jackson was suppose to have a race kit or tune out by now. But due to the mess this year has been its on hold.

 

[PaulF]

Hi Folks.. New to the forum and to the SXS experience. (I got too old for ATV's).. I Researched SXS's for about a year before I settled on the Talon R. I probably would not have spent the money right away for the Jackson kit, but found a deal that I couldn't pass up. Here is my question.. Jackson has said that you need to run the stock muffler with the kit, or it could cause "Drivability" issues. I'm wondering if anyone has tried a lighter, better sounding exhaust with the turbo. I have a feeling Jackson may only be saying that because of liability with emissions. With every other turbo system that I know of, a better flowing exhaust is a good thing. Opinions?

This is a really complex issue. Jackson has their hands tied for several reasons but it all revolves around CARB and Federal Emission compliance. To be a Honda Authorized accessory, the turbo kit MUST comply with all the emission laws. The stock muffler has a cat converter in it so that meant either use the stock muffler or provide a better flowing one with a new cat in it. Obviously, that would have been cost prohibitive. So in other words, Jackson has to require the stock muffler to be compliant so they tuned the kit for it and cannot recommend or tune for another muffler or they will lose their CARB compliance.

The Jackson kit is on the Race talons but you will notice they run a non-stock muffler (and it does not have a cat). Oscar told me they provided the turbo kit and some support but the race team does their own tuning and they are allowed to because it is off-road/race use only. The stock muffler was designed and tested to go up to 170 HP so that is where Jackson stopped. The race team is reported to be up in the 200 HP range with their custom setup and tuning.

Jackson is(was) working on a "race only" kit but as @HondaTech points out, it is on hold for now (maybe forever). It is alleged to be similar to the race team setup and around 200 HP.

Any other aftermarket turbo kits out there (for any brand/model) that is not factory authorized (even if it retains or replaces the cat) are all technically illegal on newer machines if it doesn't have CARB and Federal approval. As far as I know, the Jackson kit is the only kit with any type of emission approval. The feds and 49 states currently don't have plans to enforce any compliance on side by sides but California has threatened to soon start policing off-road vehicles and if you are found to be tampered or non-CARB compliant, you will get a (very expensive) ticket (just like a car).

So unless you live in California, you can probably get away with a non-compliant modification on your off-road machine (for now anyway). In California, it might be a bit of a risk to go non-compliant on a side by side.

 

[Slow-Poke]

Thanks for the replies/answers. I'm not really worried about CARB and would keep the original to switch back if needed. But, don't wanna mess up the factory warranty either. Honestly was thinking more about weight and tone more than increasing HP. Near as I can tell, the thing has plenty of ponies for my type of riding and places I go. I'll just wait awhile and see what develops.

 

[MDFMac]

i installed a evo on my talon and yes it did run lean. but i am running 14lbs of boost. i just turned up the fuel a little and it was good. but until i install a new fuel pump i wont be able to go any more right now. i will have a fuel pressure Gage in it very soon so i can monitor that 2. i used a Aem boost Gage with controller.

so yes you need the stock muffler unless you have a way to tune it. it went from 11af to a 13.5 at full acceleration just adding the evo. im no exspert on this but i feel that is a bit lean for that much boost.

 

[Slow-Poke]

I am far from an expert as well (understatement), but this page has some seamingly good information. If 14.7 is a complete burn (neutral), they say that 12.6 is the target for HP vs. 15.4 for economy. Obviously, anything over 12.7, the HP starts falling off, but it is not considered lean until 14.8. I understand though.. To keep the performance numbers up and the chamber temps down, anything over 13 might be abit much. I would imagine you guys already know this stuff.. I'm just looking into it. I come from the old school where you check the color of the plugs to figure it out.

Air fuel ratio – x-engineer.org

Tutorial on what is the air-fuel mixture, stoichiometric ratio and its influence on the performance of an internal combustion engine

x-engineer.org

 

[MDFMac]

yea im still learning . i installed the af gage the same day i put the turbo on. it ran 11 to 12 and im trying to keep that as close to what it was as possible. when i have a better way to test and tune i will refine it. but for now i only have the af gage to go off of. and my way of tuning is janky at best right now. and when dealing with boost things change a bit. i spent some time reading up on af ratios with boost. its diffrent. here is a pretty good article i found

also keep in mind when i say a af ratio , it is at 100% throttle accelerating at max boost. my idle is between 14 and 15

How To Tune A Turbocharged Engine

Tuning turbocharged engines can be daunting, but worry no more! Learn the techniques required for tuning turbocharged engines like the pros.

www.hpacademy.com

 

[HondaTech]

i installed a evo on my talon and yes it did run lean. but i am running 14lbs of boost. i just turned up the fuel a little and it was good. but until i install a new fuel pump i wont be able to go any more right now. i will have a fuel pressure Gage in it very soon so i can monitor that 2. i used a Aem boost Gage with controller.

so yes you need the stock muffler unless you have a way to tune it. it went from 11af to a 13.5 at full acceleration just adding the evo. im no exspert on this but i feel that is a bit lean for that much boost.

The people my GM spoke to said the limiter for fuel is the injectors. They are pretty much maxxed with he Jackson tune and need to be uncapped or replaced to get the correct fuel for more boost or other mods.

The pump is voltage controlled, since its return less and shouldn't be an issue.

 

[MDFMac]

yes and i was told that fuel supply was also a issue. and from my testing i have had no problem adding fuel with pulse width modifications, to a point. i have had no issues with 14 psi delivering enough fuel with modding the injector signals. but when i get the fuel pressure gage fully working then i will know for sure what is going on there. i just wish some one would make some more tunes that i could put in. i dont have the equipment or the knowledge yet to start my own tune from scratch.

that is interesting that they control the pump with variable voltage...... hmmm i need to figure out the duty cycle on that.....

on a side note.. the map sensor doesn't read over 10 psi

 

[Smitty335]

The people my GM spoke to said the limiter for fuel is the injectors. They are pretty much maxxed with he Jackson tune and need to be uncapped or replaced to get the correct fuel for more boost or other mods.

The pump is voltage controlled, since its return less and shouldn't be an issue.

All of this is why I will stay stock, well maybe a air filter up grade?

 

[MDFMac]

just did some reading and the fuel pump is not variable. its is on and off with a relay.

 

[MDFMac]

All of this is why I will stay stock, well maybe a air filter up grade?

the air filter setup i did was worth it... except i cant hardly hear the recirculation valve any more from in the cab.

Jackson will not fully say or promote any mods of there system. they want it to be fully carb legal. so the open comunity is going to be the only way to find the info. unless some race team gives up some knowledge on what they have done. for now i will keep experimenting, because i am enjoying working on it almost more than going for a ride. do not blame anyone for not doing the things i have done to mine. but i know the risk of my actions and am fully ready to tear down the engine to fix it if it happens. and maybe do a bit of modding inside... lol

 

[Smitty335]

Jackson will not fully say or promote any mods of there system. they want it to be fully carb legal. so the open comunity is going to be the only way to find the info. unless some race team gives up some knowledge on what they have done. for now i will keep experimenting, because i am enjoying working on it almost more than going for a ride. do not blame anyone for not doing the things i have done to mine. but i know the risk of my actions and am fully ready to tear down the engine to fix it if it happens. and maybe do a bit of modding inside... lol

I just don't have the time to have the fun you are having, I just want to ride? But do appreciate all the info you and yours provide!

 

[HondaTech]

yes and i was told that fuel supply was also a issue. and from my testing i have had no problem adding fuel with pulse width modifications, to a point. i have had no issues with 14 psi delivering enough fuel with modding the injector signals. but when i get the fuel pressure gage fully working then i will know for sure what is going on there. i just wish some one would make some more tunes that i could put in. i dont have the equipment or the knowledge yet to start my own tune from scratch.

that is interesting that they control the pump with variable voltage...... hmmm i need to figure out the duty cycle on that.....

on a side note.. the map sensor doesn't read over 10 psi

Maybe I got some info mixed up or the wrong info to begin with.

This is also another problem with the system, the map sensor can't really read the boost past a certain level and their "calculating" boost for fuel and ignition past a certain point.

We've talked to several different people hacking this kit including Proctor Racing themselves.

 

[JacksonRacing]

Jackson was suppose to have a race kit or tune out by now. But due to the mess this year has been its on hold.

Definitely in development. The standard kit is near max of quite a few components, so the next level requires some upgrades. We want to make sure the upgrade is still "plug n play easy" for customers, but that takes more work. Some cool components for all Talon performance guys will come out of this though. That's the positive of jumping through these hurdles.

 

[SpeedBuggy]

i installed a evo on my talon and yes it did run lean. but i am running 14lbs of boost. i just turned up the fuel a little and it was good. but until i install a new fuel pump i wont be able to go any more right now. i will have a fuel pressure Gage in it very soon so i can monitor that 2. i used a Aem boost Gage with controller.

so yes you need the stock muffler unless you have a way to tune it. it went from 11af to a 13.5 at full acceleration just adding the evo. im no exspert on this but i feel that is a bit lean for that much boost.

How did it run with the Evo on the supplied tune and boost settings?

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Looks like Hess Motorsports is about to release their own turbo kit for the Talon. Based on the picture posted on FB, running dual HMF race mufflers isn't going to be a problem.

 

[MDFMac]

How did it run with the Evo on the supplied tune and boost settings?

it ran lean. i had to tune it a little.