P1000 My research on second battery and isolator and winch/battery problems.

[Bradley-Thornton]

The AGM battery vs Gel, no contest.

Quick search online (not sure about the less expensive part, from my experience AGM's cost a bit more.

"AGM Batteries have a lower internal resistance that allows for much faster charging and better performance under heavy load conditions. AGM Batteries will most likely also perform better than GEL in colder operating conditions, and AGM is often less expensive as an option for getting reliable power.Jun 1, 2021"

Not really sure your point with this? For secondary I have already pointed out the XS Power is the best not an option but a fact once I did my research. Add it does cost more. But this is my starter battery not secondary and smaller area. Battery options are harder to come by and being the factory lasted 6yrs I just went with a cheap option. Now You have pointed out that AGM is better BUT you gave 0 options of batteries that fit. Maybe instead of Trolling be helpful and give option that helps others.

 

[bumperm]

Maybe instead of Trolling be helpful and give option that helps others.

Trolling?? Are you off your meds? You need to double check the meaning of trolling if you think my previous post was a troll. Now this response . . . well okay, maybe.

 

[RedorDead]

I also went with an AGM battery, a deep cycle marine version, cheaper, does the job and if properly taken care of (IE kept charged) last a long time, my last one lasted 6 years.

Also, I would use the larger bigger battery as your accessory battery and not swap it for the start battery. The whole reason people put in an second battery is for the heavy load of accessories especially a large winch. The puny start battery will not last long with any use of a winch, even for plowing a driveway.

I concur I trust Honda to spec the cranking battery to fit the need. Winching OTOH will potentially go on for minutes at a time vs a second or two of cranking. So I would aim for the better / higher capacity battery as the aux/winch battery.

When I get around to putting mine in I may do a stinger to parallel both batteries on demand. Have to do some more research of my own before deciding.

Insofar as batteries, wouldn’t the LiFePo commonly available now be a good choice for an aux for those not doing a winch? I wouldn’t consider one for a winch application because the BMS won’t support high current.

 

[bumperm]

I concur I trust Honda to spec the cranking battery to fit the need. Winching OTOH will potentially go on for minutes at a time vs a second or two of cranking. So I would aim for the better / higher capacity battery as the aux/winch battery.

When I get around to putting mine in I may do a stinger to parallel both batteries on demand. Have to do some more research of my own before deciding.

Insofar as batteries, wouldn’t the LiFePo commonly available now be a good choice for an aux for those not doing a winch? I wouldn’t consider one for a winch application because the BMS won’t support high current.

An option many use, is a True battery isolator. This allows the battery under charge (either one) to also pass charging current to the other battery once the battery under charge reaches about 13.3 volts. It also allows the battery, that's not being discharged , to assist the other battery under heavy load, but only until the "helping" battery voltage drops to 12.8 volts. In other words, it protects the starting battery so you can get out of dodge after the retrieve.

This is much different that just paralleling the batteries for winching as you mentioned, as doing that with a relay etc. risks not having enough battery power left for starting after the winching - if that is needed. Now admittedly, running the engine, assuming that is possible, can help with the winching current demand, but the alternator output is only 50 amps or so, at that's with the engine at 5,000 rpm, at idle, it's not going to be much help at idle where output is a fraction of that.

 

[RedorDead]

An option many use, is a True battery isolator. This allows the battery under charge (either one) to also pass charging current to the other battery once the battery under charge reaches about 13.3 volts. It also allows the battery, that's not being discharged , to assist the other battery under heavy load, but only until the "helping" battery voltage drops to 12.8 volts. In other words, it protects the starting battery so you can get out of dodge after the retrieve.

This is much different that just paralleling the batteries for winching as you mentioned, as doing that with a relay etc. risks not having enough battery power left for starting after the winching - if that is needed. Now admittedly, running the engine, assuming that is possible, can help with the winching current demand, but the alternator output is only 50 amps or so, at that's with the engine at 5,000 rpm, at idle, it's not going to be much help at idle where output is a fraction of that.

The reason I would consider using a parallel relay rated for high current in addition to the True isolator is I believe that isolator is rated 50 amps (source: Amazon). Whereas a Warn 4500 seems to draw about 250 max. Before I come to any conclusion and plan my install I’ll research what the True has for overcurrent protection. Likely it will open up if the winch applied a ~125 amp load (assuming both batteries are similar in capacity) leaving the full load on the aux. It’s quite possible the voltage sensing parameters on the True are adequate to detect such conditions and open up; after all many people use those with winches successfully.

I tend to think a lot about worst case scenarios and how to avoid them. I can foresee some circumstances where I’d want to use both batteries for longer winch time on an inoperable stuck machine. Sometimes its necessary to extract yourself from a bad place to get in a position to make repairs. I don’t recommend everyone think this way, either. But the intellectual exercise has saved me from walking home a few times over the years.

 

[bumperm]

The reason I would consider using a parallel relay rated for high current in addition to the True isolator is I believe that isolator is rated 50 amps (source: Amazon). Whereas a Warn 4500 seems to draw about 250 max. Before I come to any conclusion and plan my install I’ll research what the True has for overcurrent protection. Likely it will open up if the winch applied a ~125 amp load (assuming both batteries are similar in capacity) leaving the full load on the aux. It’s quite possible the voltage sensing parameters on the True are adequate to detect such conditions and open up; after all many people use those with winches successfully.

I tend to think a lot about worst case scenarios and how to avoid them. I can foresee some circumstances where I’d want to use both batteries for longer winch time on an inoperable stuck machine. Sometimes its necessary to extract yourself from a bad place to get in a position to make repairs. I don’t recommend everyone think this way, either. But the intellectual exercise has saved me from walking home a few times over the years.

Consider that the Warn 4500, as with most winches, is rated for intermittent duty. I've seen the specs somewhere, but just now looked in the manual and it says powering out the rope 30' (that's no load of course) requires a cool down period of 20 minutes - - and so it's better to unspool by releasing the clutch, of course. The point being, that as current to the motor increases with load, so does heat buildup. With any significant winching (or wenching for that matter) heat build up can be a problem. On the other hand, the cool down period, assuming the engine can be run at higher rpm, can provide so recharge time for the battery.

 

[Smitty335]

Consider that the Warn 4500, as with most winches, is rated for intermittent duty. I've seen the specs somewhere, but just now looked in the manual and it says powering out the rope 30' (that's no load of course) requires a cool down period of 20 minutes - - and so it's better to unspool by releasing the clutch, of course. The point being, that as current to the motor increases with load, so does heat buildup. With any significant winching (or wenching for that matter) heat build up can be a problem. On the other hand, the cool down period, assuming the engine can be run at higher rpm, can provide so recharge time for the battery.

When I installed my new winch and respooled it with tension you could listen to the winch and it when it needed to cool. didn't take long cause it was cold outside

 

[RedorDead]

Consider that the Warn 4500, as with most winches, is rated for intermittent duty. I've seen the specs somewhere, but just now looked in the manual and it says powering out the rope 30' (that's no load of course) requires a cool down period of 20 minutes - - and so it's better to unspool by releasing the clutch, of course. The point being, that as current to the motor increases with load, so does heat buildup. With any significant winching (or wenching for that matter) heat build up can be a problem. On the other hand, the cool down period, assuming the engine can be run at higher rpm, can provide so recharge time for the battery.

Excellent info and I agree completely. I’m thinking of the seldom seen situation where the engine can’t run until after recovery is complete. As in when the depth finder has malfunctioned and it’s submerged. Or it’s not upright.

Not that I’ve ever done that.

 

[bumperm]

Excellent info and I agree completely. I’m thinking of the seldom seen situation where the engine can’t run until after recovery is complete. As in when the depth finder has malfunctioned and it’s submerged. Or it’s not upright.

Not that I’ve ever done that.

In NV's high desert, the best I can find is a mud puddle that's already been claimed by half a dozen ducks and a few mustangs. But you are spot on for you submersible types (you need one of those WWII Klaxon Horns "Dive! Dive! Taker 'er down to periscope depth!"). I have one, but it's 110 VAC from the old Mare Island Shipyard in CA. Sounds way cool and confuses my neighbors who don't know where that noise is coming from.

For your last resort battery parallel relay, and the chance you'll have both batteries depleted in you "recovery adventure", it'd probably be good to also carry one of the lithium battery powered jump starters.

 

[Bradley-Thornton]

Just want to give an update both batteries are still going strong. The one in my Mustang has been run down a few times over the year not to 0 but below 50% I just hit it on the 20amp for 10-15min and it's like new. This is my fault when it has been run down like Dynoing or tuning.

Many of my buddies run these batteries in their boats also. Like as in one battery taking the place of 2 no joke.