P1000 No low gear, transmission grinding

[Chuck_MN]

Time to add another item to the list of issues with my '16 P1000-5 DLX.

Driving the Pioneer through deep snow a couple months ago something went haywire in the transmission and the machine jumped out of low range gear. Not sure if snow packed inside and somehow the gear cable system had movement or snow pack to prevent full gear shift, but that was the start of the issue. Fast forward to last week. More snow, went down a steep incline in deep snow and the machine lost low range again, and this time something epic happened in what I believe is the sub-transmission. Machine clunked very hard out of gear and now it grinds a gear. When the transmission is warm it will shift into low gear, but fall out of gear with the slightest movement in forward motion.

I inspected all the cables to the gear shift on the sub-transmission and everything looks fine and the cable did not need adjustment. However, upon inspection it appears the sub-transmission and engine "float" together when the engine runs. It appears there is slight movement and the cable and transmission don't see eye to eye and it may have come disengaged when the Pioneer was on uneven ground. I have the gear issues when the machine is in rough, uneven terrain.

I then drained the sub-transmission oil and found it is quite dirty; dark grey in color. I flushed out all the oil I could. I did not find any metal in the oil with a magnet.

Is it possible the a shift fork failed in the sub-transmission? Has anyone seen this?

There are no codes, never had a code.

All the factory recalls and updates have been done.

I plan to bring it to the dealer, but hoping it won't cost an arm and a leg..

 

[Admin]

 

[hondabob]

Sounds like the low range gear dogs got rounded off. Its about a 4 hour job to pull the sub trans and replace the low range gears. Also if that is your problem you might want to upgrade to the Talon reverse gear. Its around 18% lower and may be an easy upgrade. I'm still checking part numbers.

 

[ohanacreek]

I think @JACKAL bent the shift fork on his ‘16 for low range.

 

[JACKAL]

I think @JACKAL bent the shift fork on his ‘16 for low range.

Yup, I sure did. Got in a bad way at top of trail 26 at RRB. Slammed a Rock, bent tie rod to a boomerang, took 2 P1Ks to get me back over a 40 degree ledge, in that part is when bent shifting fork under a big bind. I would think there is no way you can bend one in even heavy use, but it is possible.

 

[Chuck_MN]

Thanks all. I'm positive the shift fork is the issue.

hondabob, I am interested in a better reverse gear. Please let me know what you find. I plow a lot of snow and the reverse gear is not ideal for this machine.

Is it worthwhile to remove the sub-transmission myself and bring it to the dealer? Dealer is a long drive from home and I would hate to haul the whole machine up there. Are there specialized tools involved? I peeked at it and not so sure how easy it is looking at the diagrams and drive train.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

Thanks all. I'm positive the shift fork is the issue.

hondabob, I am interested in a better reverse gear. Please let me know what you find. I plow a lot of snow and the reverse gear is not ideal for this machine.

Is it worthwhile to remove the sub-transmission myself and bring it to the dealer? Dealer is a long drive from home and I would hate to haul the whole machine up there. Are there specialized tools involved? I peeked at it and not so sure how easy it is looking at the diagrams and drive train.

Pretty sure I saw a similar post recently and the guy replaced a gear or two and a fork for less than $300 but did the work himself. Get a service manual and see what tools they spec and what you'll be getting into. It should be a pretty straight forward job. The "dogs" teeth that lock the gears together can get rounded off. When that happens it tries to pop out of gear easy. It can bend a shift fork and/or rod to if tries to kick out. Not sure how long it might be before the Talon gears are available or if they will work (they should) but would be a good upgrade if you can wait. Also, I do not know if you have a good skidplate but the shifter arm is right at the bottom by the skid and the factory skid will bend up into it really easy.

 

[Chuck_MN]

Thanks snuffnwhiskey, I should have known better so I ordered the service manual. I'd rather do this work myself, but transmissions are not my specialty. I do have factory skid plate and I will have to consider a "good" skidplate.

 

[Chuck_MN]

I took the sub transmission out and I indeed found the slightly rounded gears. I'm replacing the shift forks too as something doesn't seem right and low gear does not want to easily engage. Almost like the shift forks are bent and binding up.

One quick question, the manual says that these gears are part of "assembly" - final drive gears. I have not taken this apart yet in fear this is an assembly. The "steel balls" (42 pieces), parts #26 in pic, between the low reverse shifter collar and final low shifter guide has me really confused. Am I in for a nightmare with steel balls? Here's a pic of the parts as I'm preparing to order parts.

Any other advice to replace items other than some O-rings and new gaskets throughout?

Thanks!

 

[snuffnwhisky]

When they say assembly, I think it basically means there are multiple parts that make up the whole unit. The balls go between the shifter and collar so the shifter rolls on the collar. The balls should just drop in. You can use some grease or Vaseline to hold stuff together if needed. Check the shift fork shaft for straightness. The fork can be kinda hard to tell sometimes so you might just replace it if its cheap. Check all the bearings to make sure they spin smoothly. Inspect all the dogs. Try to clean out a big area (twice as big as you think you'll need haha) and layout everything in order to speed reassembly.

 

[Chuck_MN]

Thanks, I added the shaft to the list of parts.

 

[imurphy907]

I see low gear #2 and assuming it connects with High gear #3. But i don’t see a shaker fork and in the sub trans shift fork view it just says forward and rear. Which one is for low? Or do they both work together for low gear?

I had the dealer fix it last time and I think all they replaced was the low gear. It lasted about 6 months. Looking to do it myself this time but not 100% on the parts I need.

 

[GPR1500SC]

Here is a thread with some parts numbers the two separate parts numbers are the parts you will need, low, and the low/ reverse

P1000 - lower Reverse on a Pioneer

I finally got around to this mod after reverse broke I found the retainer on the bottom with most of its balls ☹ Here is a complete parts list you will need if you do reverse only, I chose to replace low also while I was in there for a extra $109.68 23691-HL6-A00 reverse 25 tooth gear $82.84...

hondasxs.com

 

[GPR1500SC]

Here is another thread you might find interesting

P1000 - Low gear gone

Mine wont stay in low, I'm guessing the gear dogs are worn. Starts out fine then bangs and goes into neutral. New shift cable and its properly adjusted. Sub trans fluid level fine. I've called the three closest dealers to me and none have heard of this problem. One says they are a week...

hondasxs.com

 

[imurphy907]

Here is a thread with some parts numbers the two separate parts numbers are the parts you will need, low, and the low/ reverse

P1000 - lower Reverse on a Pioneer

I finally got around to this mod after reverse broke I found the retainer on the bottom with most of its balls ☹ Here is a complete parts list you will need if you do reverse only, I chose to replace low also while I was in there for a extra $109.68 23691-HL6-A00 reverse 25 tooth gear $82.84...

hondasxs.com

Golden info Thank you! GPR1500SC I searched over and over and over and that thread never came up.

 

[Hondoman]

I see low gear #2 and assuming it connects with High gear #3. But i don’t see a shaker fork and in the sub trans shift fork view it just says forward and rear. Which one is for low? Or do they both work together for low gear?

I had the dealer fix it last time and I think all they replaced was the low gear. It lasted about 6 months. Looking to do it myself this time but not 100% on the parts I need.

Fyi, parts availability varies. Mines been torn down going on four weeks. I initially ordered everything from bike bandit. After a week called them about the status (no order confirmation email) they couldn't source anything, nor knew when they could due to Covid delays. I canceled the order and reordered through my local honda dealer ($120 more). In 2.5 weeks since I have all parts for the repair except the talon lower reverse gear parts. They said they come from California and are available but are delayed in shipping (covid). They are supposed to ship this week.

As far as dealer repair goes, I called the three nearest me. None had heard of or done this before. I lost faith in them pretty quickly and decided to do it my self.

 

[ehart814]

This issue is something that worries me. I'm not having any symptoms of a problem yet (2500 miles). But if there is anything I can do to prevent this problem I'd be really interested in finding out about it. I have had L not completely engage before and grind a bit, but it only happened once. I always make sure to pull the shifter all the way down and make sure the "L" is displayed before taking off. I am also running the Honda synthetic oil with Moly in the sub trans only...

 

[Hondoman]

This issue is something that worries me. I'm not having any symptoms of a problem yet (2500 miles). But if there is anything I can do to prevent this problem I'd be really interested in finding out about it. I have had L not completely engage before and grind a bit, but it only happened once. I always make sure to pull the shifter all the way down and make sure the "L" is displayed before taking off. I am also running the Honda synthetic oil with Moly in the sub trans only...

A properly adjusted shifter cable and coming to a complete stop before shifting into low will help prevent wear on the gear dogs. I'm 99% sure shifting into low while still rolling caused my issue.

 

[hondabob]

The Pioneer shop manual says to install the case with it in Park which is impossible, it should read in neutral. I think all manual trans are are assembled in neutral. I took pictures when I took mine apart and made sure all the washers and spacers were installed properly. The cush drive between the engine and sub trans can be difficult to line up. It may be easier to have it on the engine.

 

[Kwilliamson1972]

Fyi, parts availability varies. Mines been torn down going on four weeks. I initially ordered everything from bike bandit. After a week called them about the status (no order confirmation email) they couldn't source anything, nor knew when they could due to Covid delays. I canceled the order and reordered through my local honda dealer ($120 more). In 2.5 weeks since I have all parts for the repair except the talon lower reverse gear parts. They said they come from California and are available but are delayed in shipping (covid). They are supposed to ship this week.

As far as dealer repair goes, I called the three nearest me. None had heard of or done this before. I lost faith in them pretty quickly and decided to do it my self.

View attachment 209275

What parts did you find bad

 

[Plowboy1466]

P1K5Dave Read his posts about the sub-trans