P1000 Pioneer 1000 engine - please explain

[Red21]

I will do my best to keep this brief. Over the years, I have had many cars, including 4 Honda Accords, a CR-V and now own a Honda Pilot. I grew up with motorcycles, including 3 Hondas, and 5 Harleys. I also love to fish, and I have had 3 four-stroke outboards (all Mercury's), ranging for a 8 hp kicker and currently a 150 4 stroke.
I have NEVER (did I say NEVER) had to take any of the above in to a dealer to have the engine valves inspected and/or adjusted. What is it about the Pioneer 1000 engine that this is required??? This seems absolutely ridiculous, especially after only 100 miles.

I will say this in conclusion. I did talk to one Honda dealer, one I know personally, and he told me that he has had several customers with Pioneer 1000's that have put over a thousand miles on their side by sides that have never had the valves checked and/or adjusted, and they are just fine. I am thinking that Honda recommends this to help their dealers make a few more $$$'s.

 

[Admin]

 

[Remington]

Its a money grab! Ive been a certified Generac tech for 17yrs and there homeowners manual says the same thing only in run hrs. no miles to calculate. I have never seen the valves far enough out of wack in that short of time 60rhrs to make a difference. Typically its 300+ and still marginal. The little single cylinder 7-8kws completely different story. When Ive asked durring my yearly certs about why they say this?, they say its to get u service work 🤨 I dont believe that's they way to do things. When its in for a maint should the tech listen to the sound he should be trained on to notice if there is an issue with the valves such as I Have been trained to do? Yes. But to tear it down know matter what at a short period of miles/run hrs? Negative!
Did I say Money grab!!!🤭

 

[DG Rider]

Over a thousand miles? Holy s***!

 

[Hondasxs]

Hey Red.
What is your question?

Sounds like your saying the Pioneer 1000 valves MUST be inspected by a dealer.
That is not true.

Or maybe that they MUST be inspected at 100 miles.
That is also not true.

The manual says inspect the valves only if noisy. Could be at 100 miles. Could be at 5000 miles.

A valve job is a little more difficulty for the 1000. But it's nothing a shade tree mechanic can't handle.



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[JenElio]

I will do my best to keep this brief. Over the years, I have had many cars, including 4 Honda Accords, a CR-V and now own a Honda Pilot. I grew up with motorcycles, including 3 Hondas, and 5 Harleys. I also love to fish, and I have had 3 four-stroke outboards (all Mercury's), ranging for a 8 hp kicker and currently a 150 4 stroke.
I have NEVER (did I say NEVER) had to take any of the above in to a dealer to have the engine valves inspected and/or adjusted. What is it about the Pioneer 1000 engine that this is required??? This seems absolutely ridiculous, especially after only 100 miles.

I will say this in conclusion. I did talk to one Honda dealer, one I know personally, and he told me that he has had several customers with Pioneer 1000's that have put over a thousand miles on their side by sides that have never had the valves checked and/or adjusted, and they are just fine. I am thinking that Honda recommends this to help their dealers make a few more $$$'s.

🙋‍♂️...mine hasn't seen a dealer since it left it. I just give it a good once over now and then, listen to how it performs and 🤞it's treated me well so far. Only 2K miles on her but it runs like it just left the dealer 👍

 

[Remington]

Or maybe that they MUST be inspected at 100 miles.

I think its this one as I took it

 

[Red21]

When I was starting to look at getting a Pioneer 1000, A local Honda dealer told me that after 100 miles, I would need to bring it in to have the valves inspected and/or adjusted. He went on to say that the price would be approximately $700. Of course I didn't have one at that point, so obviously I had no owners manual to verify. This is what the dealer told me.
I appreciate all the responses and comments.

 

[Hondasxs]

When I was starting to look at getting a Pioneer 1000, A local Honda dealer told me that after 100 miles, I would need to bring it in to have the valves inspected and/or adjusted. He went on to say that the price would be approximately $700. Of course I didn't have one at that point, so obviously I had no owners manual to verify. This is what the dealer told me.
I appreciate all the responses and comments.

Yep... A dealer should recommend bringing it in. lol. That's $650 in labor charges.
And the pricing is about right for a proper first service that INCLUDES ACTUALLY checking the valves.
Its a good 12 pack job to get it apart, checked, and back together.

I would say only do it if you feel the ticking is too loud for you.

 

[Jerryg]

It depends on many factors as to why you would need the valves checked. Honda is just doing some CYA.

If you are not running the engine hard and are good with oil changes, they will probably be fine.

But, if you are constantly mud bogging or doing desert runs, you should absolutely check them.

 

[mlynch001]

Pioneer 1000's use Direct acting intakes and roller rocker exhaust valves. Intakes tend to tighten up and get quiet, exhausts tend to loosen up and get noisy. This can be a problem if you do not understand this characteristic.

Folks, it is NOT about the valves getting "noisy", It is about the valves getting "quiet" because valve clearance "Goes away" due to the valve faces and valve seats wearing down. I have been doing this for 45+ years and at this point cannot remember any "normal" Direct Acting valve trains like HONDA that has had valves with enough clearance to be noisy. I have seen many more cases of "tight" valves on these shim and bucket designs.

INTAKE Valve noise comes from wear on the cams, buckets, shims and valve tips; this rarely happens except when the engine is run low of oil or with contaminated oil. I have been a HONDA tech for the better part of my life and I can state this as fact.

The problem is that these direct acting type of valve trains, they will "lose" clearance and they get quiet, when the clearance goes away. The valves never close and the engine will lose power and become very hard to start, especially when hot. This is the issue, there is no "tic-tic-tic" when the valve close up from lack of clearance. Again, valves "lose" clearance because the valve seats and valve faces erode due to dirt ingestion, this is why you need to "inspect" the valve clearance. All of that being said, I have owned many HONDA shim type engines and typically, they will need about one valve adjustment over their lifetime; IF YOU KEEP THE DIRT OUT OF THEM.

It is true that it does not take that much additional time (labor $) to "inspect" the clearance, it does take considerable time (labor $$$) to "adjust" the INTAKE clearance if it is not correct. The dealers are quoting the "Full Monty" price, because if you "inspect" the valves and find one valve "out of spec", then you need to go through the full adjustment procedure, which is pretty intense. They are just taking the "lazy" way out; as it takes time to explain and sell this to the customer. When I worked in the dealerships, We quoted one price for "Inspect/Verify Only", which was MUCH less that the "Inspect and Adjust" price. We did relatively few "Inspect /Adjust" procedures in relation to the number of "Inspect/Verify Only" procedures.

Adjusting the exhaust valves is easy-peasy. The exhaust valves do, very often get "noisy", since they are a "rocker arm" type roller follower. These types have more places to wear and those all contribute to "noisy' operation.

Not sure if my explanation is 100% clear, but we can discuss as needed.

 

[Hondasxs]

Normally when common people say they are "checking the valves"...
Yes, they mean shims, cams, and rocker clearances.
Not sure of anyone would actually think the term "checking the valves" would mean actually checking the valves.
but that's just me, I'm far from a expert.

 

[DG Rider]

I'd like to see a screen shot of the service manual where it says to adjust the valves only if noisy?

 

[Hondasxs]

This.

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[Hondasxs]

And the * note says.

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[mlynch001]

I have seen many more issues caused by tight valves than loose valves.

That "NOTE" in the manual is sort of a "DUH" moment. Not sure why you would need to "Remind" a so called "technician" of this fact?? Loose valves are obvious (very noisy), it would be common sense to check valve clearance because of excess engine noise.

An engine that constantly or consistently has "loose" valves is one that has issues with abuse, the lubrication system or oil maintenance. The top end is the first to starve of oil, and once starved of oil, wear on all the parts of the valve train accelerates quickly. There is NO FIX for wear or wear patterns, once these occur and become established.

Running the "wrong" oil, low oil levels, running contaminated oil, using sub standard filters or not changing filters regularly are all issues that cause terrible and irreversible damage to entire valve train. Hard use and high RPM are also important factors in such wear or damage. Once the valve train is damaged due to those factors above, most engines will typically be noisier, even when properly adjusted.

I have see HONDA DOHC 750's, 1000's, CBX and others with the valves so tight that were quiet as a church mouse (almost silent); IF you could ever get them to start. Many older HONDA TRX 250's and 300's would simply stop running because the valves closed up and compression went away when hot. Very common on all 4 stroke off road Bikes and ATVs regardless of age, definately NOT a "new" or "recent" issue.

The symptoms of "tight" valves are not near as obvious, because you don't "hear" anything, but a nice quiet engine, albeit one that will not perform properly. The symptoms include hard starting, no power, crappy fuel mileage and some times backfiring through the carburetor(s)/Throttle body under load. It is very common to see engines that have had proper oil and filter maintenance and high mileage to also have tight valves (unless regularly inspected).

 

[Fischer]

I have seen many more issues caused by tight valves than loose valves.

That "NOTE" in the manual is sort of a "DUH" moment. Not sure why you would need to "Remind" a so called "technician" of this fact?? Loose valves are obvious (very noisy), it would be common sense to check valve clearance because of excess engine noise.

An engine that constantly or consistently has "loose" valves is one that has issues with abuse, the lubrication system or oil maintenance. The top end is the first to starve of oil, and once starved of oil, wear on all the parts of the valve train accelerates quickly. There is NO FIX for wear or wear patterns, once these occur and become established.

Running the "wrong" oil, low oil levels, running contaminated oil, using sub standard filters or not changing filters regularly are all issues that cause terrible and irreversible damage to entire valve train. Hard use and high RPM are also important factors in such wear or damage. Once the valve train is damaged due to those factors above, most engines will typically be noisier, even when properly adjusted.

I have see HONDA DOHC 750's, 1000's, CBX and others with the valves so tight that were quiet as a church mouse (almost silent); IF you could ever get them to start. Many older HONDA TRX 250's and 300's would simply stop running because the valves closed up and compression went away when hot. Very common on all 4 stroke off road Bikes and ATVs regardless of age, definately NOT a "new" or "recent" issue.

The symptoms of "tight" valves are not near as obvious, because you don't "hear" anything, but a nice quiet engine, albeit one that will not perform properly. The symptoms include hard starting, no power, crappy fuel mileage and some times backfiring through the carburetor(s)/Throttle body under load. It is very common to see engines that have had proper oil and filter maintenance and high mileage to also have tight valves (unless regularly inspected).

Question for you. Does bouncing off rev limiter damage valves?

 

[lee]

Question for you. Does bouncing off rev limiter damage valves?

No, that is why the rev limiter is there.

 

[bigshoe]

At 5k I checked mine for sh*** and giggles not out at all. And a fyi a car engine and harley engines use hydraulic lifters not solid lifters they do not need backlash ck. they mostly maintain themselves

 

[DG Rider]

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So that's where people get it...and I can see why people would come up with that interpretation.

But...I think what they are saying is if your valves get noisy before the next scheduled check, go ahead and check them. Don't just run it until the next interval.

 

[Hondasxs]

So that's where people get it...and I can see why people would come up with that interpretation.

But...I think what they are saying is if your valves get noisy before the next scheduled check, go ahead and check them. Don't just run it until the next interval.

Yep.
Everyone is welcome to do what they wish.

But I know most honest dealers will follow this guideline.

Others will say it needs to be done at each noted service for $700 a pop.

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