P500 The early Torq-lockers, the burr and axle removal woes.

[pFive]

EDIT TO ADD: I don't think there is/was a burr, just a steep-short bevel ramp.

So, during initial locker testing I tore out the upper rear A-Arm mount,I was nose down in a ravine and trying to K-Turn and that may have finished that off. Anyway, now I am starting the tear down of the front half of the machine for repairs and bracing, however the Rhino axle just pulled the inner CV apart instead of pulling out the axle. I have no choice now but to open the boot on an otherwise perfect axle and see about some sort of puller to get this out, if its even possible. How bad is this gonna be? I hope I can get this thing out, as it is even if I do I will need to remove that locker and see about the burr, I wonder if it needs a chamfer.

 

[Admin]

 

[RydeAK]

I believe Torq Locker issued a statement about "re-pinching" the axle clips when reinstalling. If you don't pinch them down they stick out further and bind on axle removal.

Also, more info on what happened? Pictures? Seems like honda's welds on the suspension mounts are an increasingly common failure point.

 

[pFive]

I did not get that memo via email at all, ever. My locker was installed prior to the thread here about pinching it due to that burr. I got the passenger side out, there is just enough room to use a long chisel to knock the cup out of the diff, it marred the outside of the cup really bad but it may be reusable. Now the drivers side is doing the same thing, and there is no way to use a chisel on this one. I have to weld some hooks onto the CV cup and use a slide hammer I guess. I will no longer recommend Rhino brand axles from SATV, they have absolutely no surface to use a puller on, and it's nearly deliberate how they did that... Just enough bevel to eliminate your using jaw pullers on the outside, and no pocket for the specific CV cup removal tool exists.

 

[pFive]

FYI. I had to grind down 3 flats inside the CV boot groove for the 3 jaw slide hammer teeth to bite into, then used a big hose clamp to hold it in place while I hit it hard a few times and the drivers side came out. I don't see any bits of the drivers side axle cir-clip, this is kind of a big problem, you dont want to leave crap in your diff. Realistically the diff and locker need to come apart anyway to fix this issue, Axles need to be easily removable, period. Those axles were pristine and just re-installed when the locker went in and that was under 3 miles of use and it took several hours to get it apart. When I took it down to install the locker it was easy to get them out, "Crimping down the cir-clip" aint a solution for this issue, the bevel may be wrong on the locker. I will take it apart this week and see if I have a burr, but I am more concerned that I don't at this point. We can deal with a burr at home in pretty much any DIY garage, but if the bevel is wrong replacing a torn boot could cause issues.

 

[pFive]

Also, more info on what happened? Pictures? Seems like honda's welds on the suspension mounts are an increasingly common failure point.

I don't know if it was sudden or cumulative, I really cant blame the machine here, it happens to all brands. Heck, I have seen arctic cats tear off entire arms, and PoPo aftermarket has gusset kits available. I should have been pro-active and used JWB's gusset idea.

OneDrive

Honda used bushings with rubber bonded to the inside of the arm, and then added teeth to the inner sleeve to bite against the mount tabs, that really makes the bushings act like a torsion bar or torsilastic suspension like the original Cooper Mini used and some light weight trailers. If you ride hard those teeth grind into the tabs if they slip, or work harden the tabs when they don't slip. Everyone really needs to mod those bushings to grind off those tiny friction teeth and then use a simple washer and/or longer bolts with a nylock to avoid any tension on that mount. That will let the thing ride better and flex more.

Video demonstration of how they behave stock.
VID_20180722_111213746.mp4

 

[Yota87]

FYI. I had to grind down 3 flats inside the CV boot groove for the 3 jaw slide hammer teeth to bite into, then used a big hose clamp to hold it in place while I hit it hard a few times and the drivers side came out. I don't see any bits of the drivers side axle cir-clip, this is kind of a big problem, you dont want to leave crap in your diff. Realistically the diff and locker need to come apart anyway to fix this issue, Axles need to be easily removable, period. Those axles were pristine and just re-installed when the locker went in and that was under 3 miles of use and it took several hours to get it apart. When I took it down to install the locker it was easy to get them out, "Crimping down the cir-clip" aint a solution for this issue, the bevel may be wrong on the locker. I will take it apart this week and see if I have a burr, but I am more concerned that I don't at this point. We can deal with a burr at home in pretty much any DIY garage, but if the bevel is wrong replacing a torn boot could cause issues.

Sorry you having Therese problems I’ve already been through it with my Torq locker but I did manage to get it apart with just the cost of a circlip and of course I had to pull front diff back apart to remove all debris from the circlip it did chew up some teeth on the outside of the circlip but did not Evan leave so much has a scratch on the locker... and I did squeeze the circlip to gether and fit the cam back on axle to see if it could be easily removed and it did work for me.you just want to squeeze it enough so the circlip is not hanging down past the chamfer.

 

[snuffnwhisky]

So, during initial locker testing I tore out the upper rear A-Arm mount,I was nose down in a ravine and trying to K-Turn and that may have finished that off. Anyway, now I am starting the tear down of the front half of the machine for repairs and bracing, however the Rhino axle just pulled the inner CV apart instead of pulling out the axle. I have no choice now but to open the boot on an otherwise perfect axle and see about some sort of puller to get this out, if its even possible. How bad is this gonna be? I hope I can get this thing out, as it is even if I do I will need to remove that locker and see about the burr, I wonder if it needs a chamfer.

I had a visegrip attachment for my slide hammer that I had to clamp on the shell to get one of mine off.

 

[pFive]

I ground 3 flats onto the cup in the groove for the boot and it worked out with a 3 jaw and a hose clamp to hold the jaws in place. I tried a stock axle in the locker component while I had it apart and it worked out a bit better, but the axle was vertical and that kept the cir-clip from hanging down any.. Breaking a cir-clip to change a boot is bad juju, i will make the ring smaller, but this cant happen again. If it does I am grinding a longer bevel onto the inner edge when I take it out again to get a broken piece out.

 

[Yota87]

I used a slide hammer and bearing separater .. as you can see in the pics on the locker the circlip goes out pass the chamfer so there for you have to sheer it off to get the axle out.. in the oem spider gear it has a ridge in it to keep the circlip from doing that... the locker does not but you can squeeze together and slide the locker on and off and just adjust to where it will still hold but pop out with applied pressure before putting it back together.

 

[Seg]

I got the notice from Torq Master just I was ready to put it back together. Hopefully with the circlip squeezed I won't have the same issue if/when I have to open her up again...

 

[pFive]

I found that if I squeezed too much the clip did nothing, so keep that in mind. I had to open the clip back up up a bit to get any retention at all with the locker bits slid over the clip. I found that while holding the CV cup vertical I could pull pretty hard, but a quick snap compressed the cir-clip and it came off by hand. I hope it works that well when it's horizontal, but the ID of the clip should work out. I feel a bit more bevel may help, but I am willing to put it all back together and be mindful of the clip size. I just wish I had known the first time around. I tried the bearing tool, but I had no luck getting it around the cup, mine is a little different. Also, I would like to see the next batch of lockers have that honda step/chamfer design.

 

[Seg]

I found that if I squeezed too much the clip did nothing, so keep that in mind. I had to open the clip back up up a bit to get any retention at all with the locker bits slid over the clip. I found that while holding the CV cup vertical I could pull pretty hard, but a quick snap compressed the cir-clip and it came off by hand. I hope it works that well when it's horizontal, but the ID of the clip should work out. I feel a bit more bevel may help, but I am willing to put it all back together and be mindful of the clip size. I just wish I had known the first time around. I tried the bearing tool, but I had no luck getting it around the cup, mine is a little different. Also, I would like to see the next batch of lockers have that honda step/chamfer design.

That's the risk being a early adapter! Did you write to TorqMaster for the product enhancement?

 

[pFive]

That's the risk being a early adapter! Did you write to TorqMaster for the product enhancement?

We talked... I did ask Cora to make a proper sized cup puller that looks like this. If it could match the back side taper of the aftermarket CV cup It would be a great asset to the tool box.

 

[sthomp54]

I havent installed my locker yet, but is this also an issue with stock axles or just aftermarket? Im trying to understand the issue but not clear on what the problem is. Will probably make more sense when I take it apart and have it in my hands but want to be prepared beforehand.

 

[Mudder]

Just trying to understand all this good info.
So for those who did the installation prior to circlip info, is there anything specific we should be watching for? Leaking, separation, or just a potential snag if a future axle removal is needed? Have not noticed any problems so far, just improved traction. Thanks in advance.

 

[Yota87]

It’s a problem with any axle and it will not cause any kind of side effects it’s just going to be a pain to remove axles if you did not squeeze on the circlip making it smaller in diameter and pre fit to insure it will release but also keep axle held in place I stretched a o-ring around the groove where the circlip goes to keep it centered on the axle so it can not sag down pass the chamfer.

 

[sthomp54]

It’s a problem with any axle and it will not cause any kind of side effects it’s just going to be a pain to remove axles if you did not squeeze on the circlip making it smaller in diameter and pre fit to insure it will release but also keep axle held in place I stretched a o-ring around the groove where the circlip goes to keep it centered on the axle so it can not sag down pass the chamfer.

Ok I think I understand now, thanks.

 

[JWB]

I'm starting to wonder if anyone with the locker installed might want to consider adding this mod too...
Here's the other control arm mount reinforcement video: Top control arm mount reinforcement.mp4

 

[pFive]

I'm starting to wonder if anyone with the locker installed might want to consider adding this mod too...
Here's the other control arm mount reinforcement video: Top control arm mount reinforcement.mp4

I just finished my mount gussets today, I basically braced the back side of the upper rear mount across it's back with a piece of 90º steel (notched to go around top tube) and then gusseted it to the top cross tube. I tried what you did, and no way can metal sit flat across even 3 of those bracket points. Not on either side. And one side still looked perfectly straight, the drill rod slid in perfect. I also ground off the teeth on the Arm bushings and used washers between the arms and the mounts. View media item 3310

 

[DG Rider]

I'm starting to wonder if anyone with the locker installed might want to consider adding this mod too...
Here's the other control arm mount reinforcement video: Top control arm mount reinforcement.mp4

So you're saying you think Rocmar was right?