2.5 days fun days without a working furnace with temps in the teens outside ...

[Remington]

This has been quite interesting I mist say. As a Tech, I love it when customers have been doing my job longer than I right @Russ989 😂 Had one today in fact. But in All seriousness…

So being a certified Carrier tech now 23 yrs and have replaced alot of heatexchangers and knowing IDC, they are notorious for not informing customers this option, if your within the 20 year period of that Heatxchanger you qualify for a credit towards a new furnace. Too late now. But Anything 15+ years and the HE goes, I highly recomend the customer to go this route. Hogh eff furnaces typical life span is 20 anyway. The new carier High eff furnaces (around since 12’) have stainless steel heat exchangers and a 10yr parts warranty. Just food for thought.
As for that class action suit. Its a joke IMO. Just another sue happy feak situation. Good for the customer tho. Those HE’rs have been around since 1990 and some still going on the original. Yes there is a small issue that can occur cuz of the acitic moisture that comes from a condensing furnace running through steel and any type of coating will rot over time. LP (Propane for those in Reo Linda) is 10 times more acidic than NG. If u run out of LP in your tank you draw the sulfer out of the bottom and that will do damage to the “Secondary HE” key here, its not the secondary's fault! Will also rot the burners (as shown in the OP’s first post) Looking at those burners, this is what has happend or over time without changing the burners on LP preferably every 3-5 years so you have a more complete burn and a long lasting HE. Gas pressure matters as well but I have not sen it out spec that far often enough to make a difference causing that. Usually its a supply and demand to the home not set up correctly as in adding a Standby Gen (Non certified guys) and it Robbing Peter to pay Paul if you will. Also, the primary HE’s do not need to be replaced unless there cracked and can be kicked back by carrier in some cases if there not cracked.

Fyi if your all still with me here, @Russ989 knows this, all band High eff furnace HE’s can fail the same way without proper yearly maintenance. Check GP, Burners, keeping the internal moisture trap of the furnace clear and above all no screens or restrictions at the venting intake and exhaust. Those restrictions will change the fuel air mixture and therefore failed HE’rs I see it every year. Also a Pressure switch will only shut a system down if there is a restriction or the inducer assembly (draft motor) isnt pulling enough. The only PS that will shut a furn down for GP is the one at the GV (gas valve) supplied with an LP conversion kit if the pressure at the “TANK” drops, not at the burners! that PS is located at the inlet of the GV. Not outlet. Little tip, they fail/dont work 1/2 the time.

That tech was using a Combustion analyzer BTW. They are nice but complex and for certain applications but not necessary in many. Alot of younger techs are using them on EVERYTHING Thats a single stage furnace, a simple manometer would have been fine to set that up. 15-20 min max and out.

Thats the end of our lesson, there will be a quiz at 0700 tomorrow! 🥳

 

[Scoop]

they are notorious for not informing customers this option, if your within the 20 year period of that Heatxchanger you qualify for a credit towards a new furnace. Too late now.

IIRC, they offered me something like a $700 credit ... towards a new furnace that they wanted $6K to $7K for.

But Anything 15+ years and the HE goes, I highly recomend the customer to go this route.

Between what I replaced (all five burner tubes, the draft inducer motor assembly, and damn near switch or sensor on the front side) to the HVAC tech replacing the ENTIRE primary AND secondary HXs, I essentially now HAVE a brand new furnace. The only bits that are still in place from the original furnace are the four sides of sheet metal and the main blower motor/wheel. That's it. If that motor goes, that's a 15-minute job to swap out the motor.

My total out of pocket cost was $500 (total) for both HX replacements and ~$530 for all the other parts (most of which was the inducer motor assembly). I'll take shelling out $1,030 for what amounts to a brand new HE furnace versus a $6K to $7K bill for a new HE furnace. If I get anywhere near the 18.5 years out of this one as the last one, I'm miles ahead. The main difference here is: Unlike the previous owner, I will ensure that annual maintenance is performed.

Hogh eff furnaces typical life span is 20 anyway. The new carier High eff furnaces (around since 12’) have stainless steel heat exchangers and a 10yr parts warranty. Just food for thought.

I hope to be long gone, living somewhere where I don't NEED a furnace, by the time this one needs to be replaced. 🤣

Looking at those burners, this is what has happend or over time without changing the burners on LP preferably every 3-5 years so you have a more complete burn and a long lasting HE.

Based on what I saw, I'd venture a guess that the original owners of this home NEVER had a single annual PM done on that furnace. Christ, they didn't have the septic tank emptied even once during the entire 15 years they lived here!

Gas pressure matters as well but I have not sen it out spec that far often enough to make a difference causing that.

Yea, another stupid former owner thing: The LGPS was bypassed. For no obvious reason. They literally removed the wire that connects the sensor to the pressure switch, then tossed the wire on top of the duct above the filter. Idiots.

HVAC guy said they always check the regulator spring/pressure as part of their annual PM program.

Also, the primary HE’s do not need to be replaced unless there cracked and can be kicked back by carrier in some cases if there not cracked.

The told me Carrier would cover the entire cost of the parts for the primary HX and all I had to cover was $500 in labor. That was an easy decision.

The only PS that will shut a furn down for GP is the one at the GV (gas valve) supplied with an LP conversion kit if the pressure at the “TANK” drops, not at the burners! that PS is located at the inlet of the GV. Not outlet. Little tip, they fail/dont work 1/2 the time.

Yup. See above. Idiots owned this place before I did.

That tech was using a Combustion analyzer BTW. They are nice but complex and for certain applications but not necessary in many. Alot of younger techs are using them on EVERYTHING Thats a single stage furnace, a simple manometer would have been fine to set that up. 15-20 min max and out.

That was/is outside of my level of expertise, so I just watched and drank beer at that point ...

 

[Remington]

🤷‍♂️

 

[trigger]

Hogh eff furnaces typical life span is 20 anyway.

Mine was installed in '03, great.

 

[Remington]

Mine was installed in '03, great.

You can go 25, but your relying on the 25 yr old every day driver car as an example at that point.
Id start budgeting. Main thing of after 20, is mist parts availability. Most manufactures have made other models by the 20 comes up on yours. You can get aftermarket prts, as we have done, but they dont hold up in most cases and your doing it twice.

 

[trigger]

You can go 25, but your relying on the 25 yr old every day driver car as an example at that point.
Id start budgeting. Main thing of after 20, is mist parts availability. Most manufactures have made other models by the 20 comes up on yours. You can get aftermarket prts, as we have done, but they dont hold up in most cases and your doing it twice.

Here's the bigger question...wait for it to take a sh!t or replace it beforehand?

 

[Remington]

they offered me something like a $700 credit ... towards a new furnace that they wanted $6K to $7K for.

You said that correct THEY offered u that. Thats not what carrier offers.
the furn quote was for an Infinity, not your equivalent an SC5 thats 2k less than infinity. But if u went infinity, you get another $250 credit in a form of a check from DTE. Bet they never told u that?

The told me Carrier would cover the entire cost of the parts for the primary HX and all I had to cover was $500 in labor. That was an easy decision.

Yeah its $350. They slipped something in there.

The LGPS was bypassed. For no obvious reason

Cuz they fail and give false trips.
not a good reason to bypass it, never bypass a safety.

I hope to be long gone, living somewhere where I don't NEED a furnace, by the time this one needs to be replaced. 🤣

👍

 

[Remington]

Here's the bigger question...wait for it to take a sh!t or replace it beforehand?

Be proactive. Murphys law in our state is it will go out the coldest day of the year, holiday etc. also youll be in emergency mode and will pay for emergency install. If they tell you they don't charge for that! Its hidden in there. Another reason to be proactive is to keep the wife happy there not happy when they have no heat!
I look at it like a car. We TYPICALLY dont drive our everyday driver till it strands us then buy a new one right? The furnace is the automobile of your home.

 

[JenElio]

🤔....... what's a furnace? 🙄

 

[Remington]

🤔....... what's a furnace? 🙄

It makes heat for your house in cold temps.
Oh you wouldnt know that Jennay! Haha

 

[JenElio]

It makes heat for your house in cold temps.
Oh you wouldnt know that Jennay! Haha

Ohhhhh gotcha, we call that opening the windows......😬

 

[Remington]

Ohhhhh gotcha, we call that opening the windows......😬

El natural!

 

[Russ989]

This has been quite interesting I mist say. As a Tech, I love it when customers have been doing my job longer than I right @Russ989 😂 Had one today in fact. But in All seriousness…

So being a certified Carrier tech now 23 yrs and have replaced alot of heatexchangers and knowing IDC, they are notorious for not informing customers this option, if your within the 20 year period of that Heatxchanger you qualify for a credit towards a new furnace. Too late now. But Anything 15+ years and the HE goes, I highly recomend the customer to go this route. Hogh eff furnaces typical life span is 20 anyway. The new carier High eff furnaces (around since 12’) have stainless steel heat exchangers and a 10yr parts warranty. Just food for thought.
As for that class action suit. Its a joke IMO. Just another sue happy feak situation. Good for the customer tho. Those HE’rs have been around since 1990 and some still going on the original. Yes there is a small issue that can occur cuz of the acitic moisture that comes from a condensing furnace running through steel and any type of coating will rot over time. LP (Propane for those in Reo Linda) is 10 times more acidic than NG. If u run out of LP in your tank you draw the sulfer out of the bottom and that will do damage to the “Secondary HE” key here, its not the secondary's fault! Will also rot the burners (as shown in the OP’s first post) Looking at those burners, this is what has happend or over time without changing the burners on LP preferably every 3-5 years so you have a more complete burn and a long lasting HE. Gas pressure matters as well but I have not sen it out spec that far often enough to make a difference causing that. Usually its a supply and demand to the home not set up correctly as in adding a Standby Gen (Non certified guys) and it Robbing Peter to pay Paul if you will. Also, the primary HE’s do not need to be replaced unless there cracked and can be kicked back by carrier in some cases if there not cracked.

Fyi if your all still with me here, @Russ989 knows this, all band High eff furnace HE’s can fail the same way without proper yearly maintenance. Check GP, Burners, keeping the internal moisture trap of the furnace clear and above all no screens or restrictions at the venting intake and exhaust. Those restrictions will change the fuel air mixture and therefore failed HE’rs I see it every year. Also a Pressure switch will only shut a system down if there is a restriction or the inducer assembly (draft motor) isnt pulling enough. The only PS that will shut a furn down for GP is the one at the GV (gas valve) supplied with an LP conversion kit if the pressure at the “TANK” drops, not at the burners! that PS is located at the inlet of the GV. Not outlet. Little tip, they fail/dont work 1/2 the time.

That tech was using a Combustion analyzer BTW. They are nice but complex and for certain applications but not necessary in many. Alot of younger techs are using them on EVERYTHING Thats a single stage furnace, a simple manometer would have been fine to set that up. 15-20 min max and out.

Thats the end of our lesson, there will be a quiz at 0700 tomorrow! 🥳

HVAC guru in the house!

 

[Scoop]

You said that correct THEY offered u that. Thats not what carrier offers.
the furn quote was for an Infinity, not your equivalent an SC5 thats 2k less than infinity. But if u went infinity, you get another $250 credit in a form of a check from DTE. Bet they never told u that?

The Comfort 95 was the recommended equivalent replacement. I asked about both the Performance 96 (I think) and an Infinity (forgot the model), but even they said both of these were NOT the right choice for my house. Something about a variable stage, constant airflow units being best for when you had all the rooms on a single floor (e.g., ranch), but not so good for a 1.5 or 2 story home. I was pleased that they DIDN'T try to upsell me something that would not have been the right fit. And, yes, they told me about the DTE rebate but, again, the Infinity was not a good fit for our home.

Before they got back with me, I was ready to shell out $1,800 to another long-time Livingston County local HVAC "expert" for the EXACT same deal until Lakeside told me $500 OTD. That was his quote, even with Carrier covering all the same costs. When I called him on why he was $1,800 and Lakeside was $500, he mumbled something about 'the hassle' of getting reimbursed. Heck, he wanted me to give him a $500 deposit to order parts. Huh? You got cashflow problems, buddy? Not my problem. I told him to pound sand after I talked to Lakeside. They jumped through hoops to, essentially, build me a completely new HE furnace for $500, save for the parts I had already replaced. I am not complaning at all.

Yeah its $350. They slipped something in there.

Accu-Temp wanted $1,800 for labor ONLY for the primary HX ONLY. If an extra $150 was a "slip", I'm perfectly fine with that.

Cuz they fail and give false trips.
not a good reason to bypass it, never bypass a safety.

If it's failing, it should be replaced. Again, that seems to be the SOP with the previous owner: When something was failing, jerry rig it. Our macerator sump (for the basement bathroom and basement kitchen) had part of a pool noodle zip-tied to the float. Not kidding. A $700K house and they zip-tied a f#$%ing pool noodle around the leaking float to avoid replacing it before selling it. Un-frigging-believable.

 

[Scoop]

Here's the bigger question...wait for it to take a sh!t or replace it beforehand?

Coming home to Michigan in March from a week+ in Florida at 0100 hours on a SUN (when you have to work on MON) to a house that has an inop furnace is NOT the time to start calling for quotes on replacement, that's for sure.

 

[Remington]

The Comfort 95 was the recommended equivalent replacement. I asked about both the Performance 96 (I think) and an Infinity (forgot the model), but even they said both of these were NOT the right choice for my house. Something about a variable stage, constant airflow units being best for when you had all the rooms on a single floor (e.g., ranch), but not so good for a 1.5 or 2 story home. I was pleased that they DIDN'T try to upsell me something that would not have been the right fit. And, yes, they told me about the DTE rebate but, again, the Infinity was not a good fit for our home.

Thats alot for an SC5 or Comfort 95 just quoted an SC5 today @$4,860 before discounts. Thats why its a cut throat industry.

Your house can deff benefit with an infinity. 1.5-2 story homes is where they shine. From the way they were growing about things to start, there not a certified or registered with carrier to sell u an infinity thats why they talked u out of it and didnt even give u an estimate for one. Company has to send u to up to date training from carrier in order to buy infinity its not cheep. Same as why they talked about the hassle cuz there not registerd whith them so its a hassle. Has noting to do with upsell. I personally never upsell.
When I sell, I give u what is the best options that will save u the most money in the present and long term, I lay it out with charts for the customer in the end its there decision. Cuz I want u to call me/us back for service, I dont want you mad at me when I came out!

Lakeside is one of our competitors. Sort of. There mainly livingston co and we are mainly Washtinaw we dont cross paths too much. They are like us a distinguished Carrier dealer. HE’r warranty is easy for us. We get alot of non registered carrier co’s that send them our way cuz if your not a registered carrier dealer, its tuff to get the warranty and the pay. alot of hoops to jump through.

 

[Scoop]

From the way they were growing about things to start, there not a certified or registered with carrier to sell u an infinity thats why they talked u out of it and didnt even give u an estimate for one. Company has to send u to up to date training from carrier in order to buy infinity its not cheep.

One would think that the ONLY Carrier authorized dealer in Livingston County who has been around for 40 years might actually be Carrier certified/registered and have trained technicians to install the entire Carrier product line, including the Infinity. But, hey, ya never know. Perhaps their salesperson was not properly trained on the various models (he sure sounded like he did).

Same as why they talked about the hassle cuz there not registerd whith them so its a hassle. Has noting to do with upsell. I personally never upsell.

That wasn't Lakeside. That was Accu-Temp. Accu-Temp is NOT an authorized Carrier dealer.

When I sell, I give u what is the best options that will save u the most money in the present and long term, I lay it out with charts for the

My HVAC technician didn't try to sell me anything. He just showed up for the initial diagnostics to confirm what I was seeing, then returned to perform the repairs. Awesome guy, super smart, super good. The sales side of things were handled by a salesperson, for parts I spoke with their parts manager, and the service side of things (scheduling the visits) was handled by their service department.

We get alot of non registered carrier co’s that send them our way cuz if your not a registered carrier dealer, its tuff to get the warranty and the pay. alot of hoops to jump through.

That's pretty much wha the guy (owner) @ Accu-Temp finally fessed up to after I asked him why he wanted $1,800 for the same repair that Lakeside wanted $500. It pissed me off because, when I first talked to him (while waiting for Lakeside and another to call me back), he told me the $1,800 was for labor AND parts for the primary HX, because NEITHER was covered. After I told him that Lakeside said the parts were covered, he tried to backtrack and tell me he originally said the $1,800 was for labor only. He basically tried to gaslight me. Oh, and how often do you force a customer to pay for parts UP FRONT when you've already confirmed it's under warranty? Sorry, that guy was a shyster, plain and simple. Tried to get me to pay him $1,300 extra to cover $1,300 worth of parts he was going to get reimbursed for by Carrier.

 

[Hogwild]

Reasonably close enough. It's a bat. See his little bat feet?

View attachment 378652

It is well done and what’s for dinner or a jerky treat! Big question is did you ever smell it cooking?