P1000 Checking valve clearance after 20hr?

KenC

KenC

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Dec 28, 2018
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I checked my own valves at 100 miles. One exhaust valve was 1 thou too tight, so I loosened it to spec but I'm sure it would have been fine if I'd skipped it. Not a recommendation, just another data point.

Took the Pioneer to the local dealer a month ago to have the muffler shield recall done and they asked if the 100 mile service had been performed, when I said I'd done it they didn't react at all. I don't think it's a ploy to get more business, I think it's probably a legitimate check that Honda engineers recommended. If the engine had hydraulic lifters, my opinion would be different but with solid lifters and adjustable lash, it makes sense to me check it after the engine has been through a few decent heat cycles. That has been the norm in similar engines as long as I can remember.
My over-arching question is, why is this not a problem with all the other Honda products that I've owned over the years? Is this a unique problem for the Pioneer engine? I researched the Polaris RZR 1000 and found that a valve check is only recommended after 200 hours of operation.
 
H

HondaTech

Guest
HondaTech, I have to ask, why has valve adjustment not been a problem for all the other Honda's that I have owned over the last few decades?? I have a 2005 Honda Foreman that's been running like a champ for 13 years, only changed the oil and filters. That's why I buy Honda's in the first place. Your thoughts on this sir....

To be honest it probably needs the valves adjusted if they never have. If left alone they can eventually lead to reduced engine power, efficiency and even damage.

In reality if you look at valve adjustment intervals today verses older machines, the intervals are much longer. All atvs are at 600 miles still, but the P1K is allowed 1800 miles between adjustments after the initial service. I've never adjusted 1 intake yet, but the P1K valves dont get loose. Due to being shimmied on the intake side, they will actually get tight, like the CRF-R dirt bikes.


I've never seen valves be a "problem" except on race model dirtbikes, and that's due mostly to th materials used, rpms, and lack of air filter maintenance on those machines.
 
K

Kepper218

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Jan 28, 2020
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Silver Bay MN
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  1. 1000-5
To be honest it probably needs the valves adjusted if they never have. If left alone they can eventually lead to reduced engine power, efficiency and even damage.

In reality if you look at valve adjustment intervals today verses older machines, the intervals are much longer. All atvs are at 600 miles still, but the P1K is allowed 1800 miles between adjustments after the initial service. I've never adjusted 1 intake yet, but the P1K valves dont get loose. Due to being shimmied on the intake side, they will actually get tight, like the CRF-R dirt bikes.


I've never seen valves be a "problem" except on race model dirtbikes, and that's due mostly to th materials used, rpms, and lack of air filter maintenance on those machines.
What specs did you adjust the valves to. I adjusted the exhaust to .09. Then I was able to reach my dealer and they said .012 so I readjusted them. My shop manual says .012 for exhaust.
 
michdave

michdave

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Apr 28, 2019
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(To Long, Didn't Read) TLDR: My exhaust valves required adjustment at the first service. Newer engines are more advanced, rev faster and higher, so they require more maintenance to run as efficient as possible. And, I don't like Polaris.



As @HondaTech mentioned, mine required the exhaust valves to be adjusted at the 20 hour mark. The intakes were fine.

In regards to older Honda's vs. the Pioneer, the engine designs are quite a bit different from the older machines. The family owned a 250 Big Red, TRX300 and TRX450es, but even those required valve adjustments. Those engines (Single Over-Head Cam) had the simple screw/lock valve adjustments, so they were easy. If I remember correctly, the TRX450es was a push-rod engine that also had screw/lock valve adjustments. The biggest thing to note there is that, those engines weren't as performance oriented. Not that the Pioneer 1000 engine (or it's sister variants in the Talon, and Africa Twin 1000) are a much more modern design that rev out a little higher, and quicker.

When you look at the high-performance engine, such as those in the modern motocross bikes or even the high-performance sport bikes, they're using a short stroke engine that is always a single or dual overhead cam engine that produces revs up into the 10k range, and much quicker than our engines. The old-school spring+screw/lock valve adjustments don't even react quick enough to keep the valves closed between strokes. So manufacture have moved to the bucket and shim design (similar to what our intake valves have). They require much higher maintenance intervals. My old CRF250R required constant valve checks, and after switching over to KTMs (350/500), it was no different. So much so that I got sick of it and went back to 2-strokes....but that's another story.

Many companies, such like in the automotive field, push their maintenance intervals longer as a selling point to the customer that; (ie. 'Buy our machine because it will cost you less in maintenance because OUR intervals are 40 hrs vs Honda's 20 hours" )…. Ducati has been fighting this battle the last 10 years as they have been trying to compete with the Japanese manufactures as it pertains to maintenance intervals. The Ducati tech's hate it because Ducati themselves haven't changed or "de-tuned" the engines enough to reliably push the intervals that far. Speaking with multiple Ducati shops throughout my moves (military makes me move), they all sang the same tune; That people wait to the last minute to perform maintenance and they're seeing valves and other specs FAAAR outside of optimal operating specifications.

All that really means, if you're comparing apples-to-apples (such a common engine designs), is that that manufacture is willing to allow the engine to move further outside the preferred optimal operating specifications.


On a personal note and just through observation, Polaris isn't exactly known for their long-term reliability. Some folks own them and never have an issue, but many run into huge concerns. (cough cough...the RZR 4-seaters catching fire ring a bell?). Many folks who buy a $30k side-by-side do not keep the machine for a long period of time. So, Polaris pushes any sales tactic they can to move as many machines as possible because their sales approach is simply to move metal. After the first owner, most warranty periods are expired...and reliability isn't a huge concern for them. So, why not push your maintenance intervals out and "sell" that to the consumer? Is it unethical...Yes....Do they seem to be concerned....No. I tired to convince myself to purchase a Polaris because they're an American owned manufacture. But what sealed the deal for me is the most recent class-action lawsuit that they're involved with surrounding the RZR's burning up. Their Chief of Safety highlighted the issue during manufacturing. After numerous complaints and injuries, he pushed for a recall on affected models. The pointy heads in accounting said that it would hurt their sales and cost too much to recall them all. He pushed and Polaris management pushed back by not allowing him to come to pertinent meetings and eventually firing him.
- Sources:

I'm not about folks being "sue crazy", but I do believe that the longevity of our sport, or any powersport for that matter, relies on responsible manufacturing which includes accountability as well as providing a safe product for the consumer. Polaris just seems to be plagued with unethical business decisions and that rubs me the wrong way.


Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and some other seem to be modeled around offering machines that will provide their owners a product that will last and be reliable for the long term. When there are major concerns, they offer a recall or service bulletin to correct the issue. Furthermore, their strong foothold in our industry show their dedication. For example, how many of us own older Japanese machines? Older generators? Lawn care equipment? With that being said, I trust their maintenance guidance. Now the dealers, that all seems to be hit or miss. I've found some great dealers who are honest and straight forward, and other who aren't. That isn't always the dealer, but the person standing behind that service desk. I just say, do your research and look out for yourself. These forums can be a great place to do just that.



But, that's a lot for a Wednesday morning, so I'll step off my soap box.
 
H

HondaTech

Guest
What specs did you adjust the valves to. I adjusted the exhaust to .09. Then I was able to reach my dealer and they said .012 so I readjusted them. My shop manual says .012 for exhaust.

In the manual Honda gives you 2 values based on where you insert your feeler gauge.

If you insert it between the cam lobe and rocker roller it should be .009"

If you you insert it at the rocker tip on top do the valve it should be .011"
 
K

Kepper218

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Jan 28, 2020
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Silver Bay MN
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In the manual Honda gives you 2 values based on where you insert your feeler gauge.

If you insert it between the cam lobe and rocker roller it should be .009"

If you you insert it at the rocker tip on top do the valve it should be .011"

Screenshot 20200429 095624 Drive
 
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Formula1

Formula1

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So where's the best place to get a service manual?
 
0

0860silverado

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Damn...You guys are making me want to check my valves. (Over 10,000 miles and never checked). I'm afraid now though because I may disqualify myself from my warranty because I didn't have this service done. (Machine runs and sounds like a purring kitten).
 
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K

Kepper218

New Member
Jan 28, 2020
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Silver Bay MN
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  1. 1000-5
The manual we have on our dealer site list both measurements, I believe our paper version is the same as the one pictured here.
So my honda shop manual says pretty clearly that the exhaust lash should be .012. And that's what the dealer said they set them at. I'm very confused. I've tried .009 and .012 and it doesn't make a noticable difference. Currently at .012.
 
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