BRed Help won't start - Starter motor good

[CaseyH]

Hi....I have a friend who has a 2013 MUV700D. He replaced the starter but SXS won't start. I removed the alternator/starter cover and checked the torque limiter assembly, starter reduction gear, and starter driven gear...all were good….could hand rotate all gears with starter motor installed...all moved freely in one direction, and didn't rotate in the other direction (as should be due to one way clutch). Use breaker bar and rotated flywheel in both directions, all seemed fine...tried to start again, still no luck....with cover still off could starter motor and all gears, even drive gear rotating but flywheel doesn't engage. Was thinking perhaps there was a flywheel engagement relay, but there isn't. Checked battery voltage drop when key turned to make sure it wasn't a weak battery, but it read 12.4 before key turned and only dropped to 11.6 when key turned and starter motor and other gears rotating. Removed the propeller shaft and crank case cover (what a crummy design) in order to pull flywheel. Flywheel, drive gear, clutch, and bearings all appeared good, but took to a Honda dealership mechanic just to make certain I wasn't overlooking something. He agreed everything looked good. He is stumped as to why it won't start.

Anyone have a clue???

 

[Admin]

 

[DG Rider]

So i take it the starter in NOT spinning over when you attempt to start?

If it is spinning but not turning the engine over, there is a "torque limiter" in the gear setup. If this were damaged, it might let the starter free spin and not be obvious from just a visual inspection.

 

[CaseyH]

So i take it the starter in NOT spinning over when you attempt to start?

If it is spinning but not turning the engine over, there is a "torque limiter" in the gear setup. If this were damaged, it might let the starter free spin and not be obvious from just a visual inspection.

The starter is spinning, the torque limiter is spinning, the reduction gear is spinning, and the drive gear is spinning, but the flywheel does not spin. All parts taken to the Honda dealership and inspected and deemed to be good.

 

[DG Rider]

The starter is spinning, the torque limiter is spinning, the reduction gear is spinning, and the drive gear is spinning, but the flywheel does not spin. All parts taken to the Honda dealership and inspected and deemed to be good.

The big gear behind the flywheel spinning too?

 

[DG Rider]

Got to step away...
I don't trust a dealer to know jack s*** about anything, so i'm going to upload the factory service manual pages for the starter/flywheel (technically, these are for the 700 Pioneer, but its the same engine). This seems like a simple sprag clutch issue on the big gear behind the flywheel. I know it seems to be working OK while turning it by hand, but...who knows.

Your buddy isn't running some type of auto oil is he/she? This type of free spinning used to be common from this in street bikes...

 

[CaseyH]

The big gear behind the flywheel spinning too?

Yes the big gear (called the driver gear or driven gear) is spinning too.

 

[CaseyH]

Got to step away...
I don't trust a dealer to know jack s*** about anything, so i'm going to upload the factory service manual pages for the starter/flywheel (technically, these are for the 700 Pioneer, but its the same engine). This seems like a simple sprag clutch issue on the big gear behind the flywheel. I know it seems to be working OK while turning it by hand, but...who knows.

Your buddy isn't running some type of auto oil is he/she? This type of free spinning used to be common from this in street bikes...

I downloaded the manual from here. Big Red Service Manual 2009-2012. Divided downloads.
Pretty much the same as what you sent. Inspected all these parts. 2013 Honda MUV700 AC STARTING GEAR | PartsFish.com
All appeared normal, but had my friend take them to the Honda dealer just in case and the mechanic there also said they were all fine.

I didn't ask my friend what type of oil he was using......why would auto oil cause the flywheel not to engage?

 

[DG Rider]

I downloaded the manual from here. Big Red Service Manual 2009-2012. Divided downloads.
Pretty much the same as what you sent. Inspected all these parts. 2013 Honda MUV700 AC STARTING GEAR | PartsFish.com
All appeared normal, but had my friend take them to the Honda dealer just in case and the mechanic there also said they were all fine.

I didn't ask my friend what type of oil he was using......why would auto oil cause the flywheel not to engage?

Well...spent some time searching but couldn't find anything about it, but pretty sure i remember back in the late 90's/early 2000's. When the "energy conserving" auto oils started being sort of standardized as what you got, there were a bunch of bike owners who were running car oil that had the "starter freewheel". The explanation i seem to recall was that the additives in the new oils were literally, too slick, and the sprag bearing would simply skate rather than engage. Don't know if that was the real truth or not, but if this started after an oil change to some regular car oil, it would be suspicious.

But...the driven gear transfers motion through the sprag, so it has to be something with it. Unless those bolts to the flywheel are all sheared off...but you would've noticed that.

 

[DanielGroulx1320]

Some starters, are counterclockwise rincons and pioneers are counterclockwise , big reds are clockwise

 

[DanielGroulx1320]

And sprag bearing spins one way so gotta make sure starter spins the right way

 

[HondaTech]

Some starters, are counterclockwise rincons and pioneers are counterclockwise , big reds are clockwise

They all have the same number of gears in the rear of the engine, and the gears are the same part #. They all spin the same direction.

Also the Big Red starter has superseded to a HN8 starter which is a Rincon part #.

 

[DanielGroulx1320]

Here’s 2 starters for the big red each one spins the opposite way, I have a pioneer 700 witch spins counter clockwise like the rincon so maybe the big red used clockwise rotation and clockwise sprag clutch

 

[DanielGroulx1320]

Here’s the “clockwise” starter saying it replaces the original Honda starter “counter clockwise” part number

 

[HondaTech]

Here’s the “clockwise” starter saying it replaces the original Honda starter “counter clockwise” part number

Well If the stater has been replaced by a new part number that spins the other way (which it doesnt) then you'd have to change the gear in the rear of the engine. All of those gears are the same on all these engines. The one way bearing is also the same part number for all three models.

If you have a backwards spinning starter then someone has flipped the rotor around inside the housing, that is the only way it'll spin the opposite direction.

You cant just replace the starter with one that spins backwards the engine will never spin over because the one way bearing wouldn't catch.

Honda replaced the HL1 starter with the HN8 starter because the HL1 were failing constantly, thr HN8 is better. They did the same on thr 420 Ranchers because of high failure rate. The starter was replaced on those by a much more expensive model and the problem went away.