P500 P500 Oil Change Problem

[Crookedcreek]

If these bolts are indeed metric (which I believe they are). The torque specs are probably listed in Newtons. 9 newtons is 2 lbs.

Does they manual actually say "9 ft-lbs"? If so, that may be the misprint.

They are metric - M5 (with an 8mm hex head). I can't speculate on what Honda may have intended to say or if it is a misprint, all I can do is give you this quote of the exact words printed in the Honda owners manual that was delivered with my vehicle.
And I quote from page 114, paragraph 12. of the Honda P500 Pioneer owners manual:
"12. Reinstall the oil filter cover, making sure the bolts are tightened to the specified torque: 9 lbf-ft (12 N-m, 1.2 kgf-m)"
Note that they even put the spec. in bold type!
I don't know how this can be misinterpreted, it's pretty darn specific.....maybe an error of intention, but there nevertheless for all owners to follow!
jak9922, If I had turned the other two after the first one broke, I'm sure they would have likewise snapped. When I went to remove the two, it took absolutely no force to "break them loose", being no pressure against the bolt head whatsoever. They had already yielded and were at the breaking point.

 

[Admin]

 

[allgm1]

those filter cover bolts are an M6 bolt not M5. IF you had your torque wrench set to the proper torque AND you used it as it was designed then those M6 bolts would have been just fine. It was either operator error or your torque wrench is junk. The bolts used here are soft so the bolt will fail before a ham fisted mechanic has a chance to damage the aluminum case, if they broke they were over tightened. If you go putting a higher grade bolt in there you run the risk of messing up some aluminum , either the cover or the case.
I'm not one to use a torque wrench on much just because there is a torque value given. normally just SNUG them down as close to the same as I can and keep the torque wrench for doing heads and such.

 

[Crookedcreek]

those filter cover bolts are an M6 bolt not M5. IF you had your torque wrench set to the proper torque AND you used it as it was designed then those M6 bolts would have been just fine. It was either operator error or your torque wrench is junk. The bolts used here are soft so the bolt will fail before a ham fisted mechanic has a chance to damage the aluminum case, if they broke they were over tightened. If you go putting a higher grade bolt in there you run the risk of messing up some aluminum , either the cover or the case.
I'm not one to use a torque wrench on much just because there is a torque value given. normally just SNUG them down as close to the same as I can and keep the torque wrench for doing heads and such.

You posted this exact same response on the "other" forum. I won't take the time to restate my rebuttal here, everyone with such an interest can go to the other site to read it, but they are M5 bolts! I will just say that your tone and accusations are less than constructive to solving the problem and hopefully preventing others from having the same problem. It sounds more that you are somehow mounting a defense for Honda, an attorney, perhaps?

 

[allgm1]

I looked it up on the parts fish
2015 Honda Pioneer 500 (SXS500M 2AC) FRONT CRANKCASE COVER | Ronnie's Mail Order
item #42, the same set up that was on my 450 foreman. The head size don't mean a thing, go by the diameter of the bolt. I think you will find that honda uses the smaller heads in aluminum, once again to encourage to use of a 1/4" drive set so ham fisted mechanics only have so much leverage. Your typical 6 pt socket will have more than enough to twist the head off a soft bolt (as you know) Personally I blame your tightening technique. The cover should be installed all the way first, before you tighten any bolts, then the bolts go in and get lightly SNUGGED. Now if you have to use a torque wrench, put it on the bolt and without stopping and keeping even psi on the handle of the torque wrench until the final torque is reached. That DOESNT mean stopping and starting the rotation of the wrench while trying to obtain said torque all one fluid motion. This in its self is the reason I do'nt use a torque wrench in the areas like this, because I feel you can't get proper torque on the bolt while standing on your head working around everything .

I'm not an attorney, actually I'm a working slob that has had the pleasure of working on my own honda since I was 14 (53). I never had cash to pay someone else to fix my stuff I always did it my self

 

[allgm1]

Here you go

 

[Crookedcreek]

Here you go

I'm feeling somewhat foolish and apologetic right now! You forced me into going downstairs and getting my caliper to measure my bolts. Mine are only slightly less than shown on your caliper, but you are correct! Now that I concede (thank you for your diligence), I question why on earth would a major company like Honda (who is unquestionably metric) defy all convention and use an M5 head size on an M6 bolt? That's just asking for issues like this. With the "lever arm" of a 8mm head being diiferent than a 10mm head I would think that the values and accuracy of any torque wrench (regardless of quality) could be affected in addition to the actual bolt capacity being different than the charts (I'll let the engineers weigh in on that one!). On top of that, to not indicate the grade of bolt on the head. Looking back at the chart, an M6 bolt (with a 10mm head) would have to be a 10.9 grade (11 lb. ft. capacity) to withstand the 9 lb. ft. specified. AN 8.8 or 9.8 grade is good for 7.5lb. ft. I don't know what grade these are, but to have stretched that much before failure, would sure seem to indicate the are "soft".
You have shed a whole new light on the subject that deserves more analysis...Thank You!
BTW, we did tighten all three bolts, in rotation, with a 6" long, 1/4" drive ratchet wrench before touching them with the torque wrench, for what I thought would be a "final snugging them up".
I'm going to the other forum to suggest looking here for this detail. Again, Thanks!

Edit: On second thought, I don't think the head size matters as related to torque values. The head is nothing more than an "attachment mechanism" for the lever arm (read wrench) to apply the torque. The resistance of the bearing surface of the bottom of the head against the contact surface may be an influence though(?). Anyone want to weigh in on this one?

 

[tjoreo]

I sure hope you get the old bolt out and get back to enjoying your ride. Like I said, these bolts are the same in my Foreman and the manual says to torque to 7ft/lbs!!! I actually just looked and they are the same in my wife's 07 Rancher and in its service manual they completely took out the torque value and simply state to tighten the bolts. I'm sorry you had to go through this but hopefully you have enlightened a few P500 owners. DO NOT TORQUE TO 9 LB/FT. The people that wrote the service manual are probably some of the same people that wrote alot of the Accessory Instructions. And we all know how they are.

 

[Crookedcreek]

I sure hope you get the old bolt out and get back to enjoying your ride. Like I said, these bolts are the same in my Foreman and the manual says to torque to 7ft/lbs!!! I actually just looked and they are the same in my wife's 07 Rancher and in its service manual they completely took out the torque value and simply state to tighten the bolts. I'm sorry you had to go through this but hopefully you have enlightened a few P500 owners. DO NOT TORQUE TO 9 LB/FT. The people that wrote the service manual are probably some of the same people that wrote alot of the Accessory Instructions. And we all know how they are.

That's really my challenge right now, and I will find a way to remove it. When I do, I'll report back on the method. Thanks for the words of encouragement and I do hope some get something out of this (if nothing else - to be careful!)....beyond just a lot of reading!

 

[jak9922]

good luck bro hope it goes easier then it sounds

 

[allgm1]

You must have "snugged" them to much before using the torque wrench, keep that thing in your tool box next time,you'll be better off using your common sense.
Like I said, these bolts really have no load on them, no need for a bigger head. Lucky for you, because they are soft they'll be easy to drill if you have to.

 

[Crookedcreek]

You must have "snugged" them to much before using the torque wrench, keep that thing in your tool box next time,you'll be better off using your common sense.
Like I said, these bolts really have no load on them, no need for a bigger head. Lucky for you, because they are soft they'll be easy to drill if you have to.

Amen to that (anyone want to buy a "slightly used" torque wrench?).
Went to a hardware store today and furthered my education (a little). Two M6 bolts on hand, one marked grade 8.8 had a flanged hex head that was visibly smaller than my sample 8mm hex Honda bolt. The other one, grade marked 10.9 had no flange (requiring a washer) hex head that appeared to be the same 8mm size when held next to my sample. So much for the charts referencing a 10mm hex head for an M6 bolt.
Obviously, we can't always rely on what we are lead to believe are in fact....factual! More research and visits to other hardware stores.
I have some thoughts on making a "tool" to remove it without drilling and using an "easy out". There's not much elbow room there for access with a drill, without the need to disassemble more of the machine...like the gas tank. I'm not really up for that right now, my luck going as it is....discretion being the better part of valor! If the tool works, I'll post some photos...for the next big fisted idiot! Peace to all.

 

[allgm1]

crooked I hope it all works out for you... literally

 

[Crookedcreek]

crooked I hope it all works out for you... literally

Thank you, and all the others for the good advice given and the well wishes given for a "happy ending"! Especially, a thanks to you for straightening me out on the bolt size and head variations.
As I said elsewhere, I'm reminded of a couple of Donald Rumsfeld quotes that I think apply to this whole ordeal:
1) "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
2) "Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist."

Hope everyone, and their families, have a Merry Christmas and Santa brings you everything you wanted! Personally, I'd be happy if he leaves a note under the tree that he had removed my broken bolt overnight!

 

[PCB67SS]

Good Luck with this one crooked......one sure fire way to never have it happen again, is order a few extra bolts.....That kinda of thinking always works for me. Have you spoken to your dealer? They may have some useful advice for you and possibly fix it free of charge.

 

[ncred02]

Man this thread is giving me the willies.
I plan on doing mine next week while I'm off from work.
Keep your eyes peeled for threads/post from me

 

[Crookedcreek]

Good Luck with this one crooked......one sure fire way to never have it happen again, is order a few extra bolts.....That kinda of thinking always works for me. Have you spoken to your dealer? They may have some useful advice for you and possibly fix it free of charge.

I have not yet talked to a dealer. Next week I plan to go to one in person and show the bolts to a service manager for his analysis and comment. The reaction I'm expecting is that I "over torqued" them, even though I didn't get close to the specified 9 lb. ft.
I just finished making a tool that I'm hoping will remove the broken bolt, but I have to wait for the epoxy to harden before I can try it, may be tomorrow morning (it wasn't marked, but I think it was 24 hour variety epoxy. Wish I had had some 5 minute, I would have tried it an hour ago!).
If the tool works (fingers crossed!), I'll post photos and description of it here. If it doesn't work, I'll poke myself in the eyes next week before talking to the service manager, the tears may just elicit a little mercy and holiday spirit and he'll say "We'll fix it for free, since the manual is wrong".....Nah!
To you point regarding quantity buying, last year I lost one of the little rubber door handle bumpers (there are four of them). Honda wanted about $4.00 for one. I searched a bunch before finding the exact replacement at a surplus outfit online where I bought 30 for $12.00 including shipping charges. I haven't lost another one since ...but I am prepared!

ncred, I'll join in with everyone else an say just be careful and don't use the torque wrench and don't over tighten them, good luck!

 

[ncred02]

I dont know what worse, me doing it or the stealer?

 

[Crookedcreek]

I dont know what worse, me doing it or the stealer?

My little "side track" aside, changing the oil is not all that bad, but all the disassembly required to gain access is a pain in the arse, I think Honda could have done better.
BTW, To all: My torque wrench was not the problem, I tested it an it is calibrated very close so, I'm still saying this one is on Honda.....I know, that and about $5.00 will get me a cup of Starbucks!

 

[Timber]

I'm glad I read your post before I started my first oil change. Everything was fine and after reading your post I checked my torque wrench on the bolts before I started and they all clicked. After changing the filter and putting the cap back on I could only get one bolt to click at 10nM 2 below the recommened torque and below what I tested the bolts at before I started. Took everything out and realigned everything and same thing. Bolts felt like they just want to keep turning, retracted one and it was stressed like yours. Went to my dealer were I purchased the machine and got 4 new bolts and still does not feel right. Bringing the machine into the dealer next week to see what they say. Last thing I want is the cover flying off 20 miles in the middle of nowhere, this is why I bought a Honda so I felt comfortable taking it into the middle of nowhere. I went to school as a small engine marine mechanic and finished top of my class so I comfortable with my skills and sure I did everything right.

 

[Crookedcreek]

I'm glad I read your post before I started my first oil change. Everything was fine and after reading your post I checked my torque wrench on the bolts before I started and they all clicked. After changing the filter and putting the cap back on I could only get one bolt to click at 10nM 2 below the recommened torque and below what I tested the bolts at before I started. Took everything out and realigned everything and same thing. Bolts felt like they just want to keep turning, retracted one and it was stressed like yours. Went to my dealer were I purchased the machine and got 4 new bolts and still does not feel right. Bringing the machine into the dealer next week to see what they say. Last thing I want is the cover flying off 20 miles in the middle of nowhere, this is why I bought a Honda so I felt comfortable taking it into the middle of nowhere. I went to school as a small engine marine mechanic and finished top of my class so I comfortable with my skills and sure I did everything right.

Best of luck to you Timber. My saga is ongoing, but hopefully near the end. I'm glad my post provided some degree of caution so you didn't end up with a broken bolt. My dealer, and American Honda in California refused assistance on my machine on the grounds that mine is out of warranty and laying the blame for the broken bolt squarely on me, claiming I applied excessive torque and saying my torque wrench must be out of calibration. My advise is to be very careful and tread lightly in working with your dealer and Honda. The Honda reputation for customer service and satisfaction has somehow eluded my personal experience. I hope others, like you, benefit from this cautionary post. I'll be interested to read your follow up after your dealer visit.