P500 P500 Oil Change Problem

[Crookedcreek]

Performed first (20 hour) oil change on the P500 today. Printed out and followed the "sticky" post on the subject. All was going well....until!
When putting the oil filter cap back on I adjusted the 1/4" torque wrench to 108"# (9'#) as shown in the "sticky" post and my operators manual. I started becoming concerned when I could not see a gap between the filter cover and the engine and the bolts continued to turn fairly easily. I backed off the torque wrench to 48"# and it would "click" immediately, so I upped it gradually until I reached 85"# and it would turn the bolt, but no "click". Fearing the worst, I took a 1/4" socket wrench, which has about a 6" leverage handle length, thinking I can do no harm with it is the bolts continued to turn. Going in rotation, I tighten the top two bolts about a half turn, or so (with not much effort). Then, on the third (bottom) bolt, turning it about the same amount, things all the sudden got easier and I thought aw *#%&. Right....the bolt snapped!!
Haven't seen anyone else mention this happening. I went back and double checked the "sticking" and the owners manual to confirm the 9'# torque spec.
Has anyone else had a like problem and, more importantly, how do I remove the broken bolt with damaging the threads in the aluminum engine?

 

[Admin]

 

[Crookedcreek]

Well Guys, I just looked up maximum torque values for a metric M5 (8mm wrench) and here is what I found for each of the grades of metric bolts (grade number followed by lb. ft.) for a dry bolt, reduce by 10% for an oiled bolt:
4.6 = 1.5, 4.8 = 2, 8.8 or 8.9 = 4.5, 10.9 = 6.5, 12.9 = 7.5
So, as you can see, even the strongest metric bolt does not allow for a 9 lb. ft. torque. What gives....is Honda wrong and the sticky?

 

[sthomp54]

That really sux, they make an extractor bit but they are kinda hit or miss. The access to the oil filter is horrible, very awkward trying to get it all back together and I never really felt confident the spring and filter were in just right but it tightened up ok so I assume its good. Why not just use a spin on filter like everyone else? I didnt use a torque wrench just went by feel and prior experience feeling the bolt seat.

 

[Hondasxs]

Dude... Thats not cool at all. I'm sorry to here this happened.
I'm like stomp54. I have never really used a torque winch on things like this.
I will remove those specs from that walk through, or add a warning note or something.
But I am looking at it in the book and that's what it says. 9 lbf.ft.
I have the service manual at my work. I will see what it says tomorrow.

 

[Crookedcreek]

I guess my plans are to call Honda customer service tomorrow and see if they will cover the repair as an extended warranty. I've had it about 16 months, so it's past the year coverage, but I would think an error in their manual that leads to a failure should get special consideration. Here is a link to the chart that shows the values I listed above. The broken bolt in in my backyard garage and I'm not going to walk back there tonight to check the grade stamp on iy, but I'll bet it's no where near the 12.9 grade!

STANDARD TORQUE VALUES - METRIC SYSTEM

 

[JACKAL]

I believe that M5 w/ 8mm head on the oil filter cover bolt is 9 newton meters or 6.5 lb. ft. of tourque not 9 lb ft.

 

[Crookedcreek]

I believe that M5 w/ 8mm head on the oil filter cover bolt is 9 newton meters or 6.5 lb. ft. of tourque not 9 lb ft.

I quote, directly from the Honda P500 owners manual, page 114, para. 12: "Reinstall the oil filter cover, making sure the bolts are tightened to the specified torque: 9 lbf-ft (12 N-m , 1.2 kgf-m)".
What Honda document are you citing?
If you are guessing that they meant to say 9 N-m, the 6.5 lb. ft. would still be the maximum for a grade 10.9 bolt (dry, not oiled). I'll check the bolt head grade stamp tomorrow, but the manual is still in error.
I'm also guessing that the aluminum engine threads could be a further limit on torque capacity.

 

[jak9922]

Oh thats horrible good luck getting that bolt out bro just take your time so things do get any worse i feel for you just next ti e make it "eeeeeeeeee" tight 6-9 ft lbs is about that much

 

[donasp]

Oh thats horrible good luck getting that bolt out bro just take your time so things do get any worse i feel for you just next ti e make it "eeeeeeeeee" tight 6-9 ft lbs is about that much

Performed first (20 hour) oil change on the P500 today. Printed out and followed the "sticky" post on the subject. All was going well....until!
When putting the oil filter cap back on I adjusted the 1/4" torque wrench to 108"# (9'#) as shown in the "sticky" post and my operators manual. I started becoming concerned when I could not see a gap between the filter cover and the engine and the bolts continued to turn fairly easily. I backed off the torque wrench to 48"# and it would "click" immediately, so I upped it gradually until I reached 85"# and it would turn the bolt, but no "click". Fearing the worst, I took a 1/4" socket wrench, which has about a 6" leverage handle length, thinking I can do no harm with it is the bolts continued to turn. Going in rotation, I tighten the top two bolts about a half turn, or so (with not much effort). Then, on the third (bottom) bolt, turning it about the same amount, things all the sudden got easier and I thought aw *#%&. Right....the bolt snapped!!
Haven't seen anyone else mention this happening. I went back and double checked the "sticking" and the owners manual to confirm the 9'# torque spec.
Has anyone else had a like problem and, more importantly, how do I remove the broken bolt with damaging the threads in the aluminum engine?

 

[donasp]

R any threads showing if so remove skid plate tack weld a nut on bolt. Try to retap threads with original thread size make sure to add grease to tap to catch any shavings

 

[Crookedcreek]

No threads showing, can just feel a burr where the bolt snapped. Removed the other two bolts today, they both are almost to the point of breaking. They are stretched to the point of having an "hour glass" shape about 1/4" from the head (same place as the one that broke). They have no marking on the head to indicate the grade. They are obviously "soft" to have stretched in this fashion and in no way would the stand up to anywhere near the owners manual stated torque value of 9 lb. ft. If I can post photos here, without using Photobucket, or the like, I will so all could see what they look like. One person suggested I might be able to use something like an O-ring pick to kind of "hook" the rough end and get it to unscrew. I'm going to try that sometime in the next few days (pretty busy time of year!).

 

[sthomp54]

Jeez. They seem really stressed. Have you checked your torque wrench, seems way higher than 9 ft lbs.

 

[donasp]

No threads showing, can just feel a burr where the bolt snapped. Removed the other two bolts today, they both are almost to the point of breaking. They are stretched to the point of having an "hour glass" shape about 1/4" from the head (same place as the one that broke). They have no marking on the head to indicate the grade. They are obviously "soft" to have stretched in this fashion and in no way would the stand up to anywhere near the owners manual stated torque value of 9 lb. ft. If I can post photos here, without using Photobucket, or the like, I will so all could see what they look like. One person suggested I might be able to use something like an O-ring pick to kind of "hook" the rough end and get it to unscrew. I'm going to try that sometime in the next few days (pretty busy time of year!).

 

[Code54]

Jeez. They seem really stressed. Have you checked your torque wrench, seems way higher than 9 ft lbs.

I was just thinking the same thing! 9lbs is not very much to do that kind of damage.

 

[donasp]

Good luck on whatever you try , hate hearing bolt flush with the case , been there done that . I know it is tight by the oil filter , to tight for drill n extractor , if all else fails I would suggest super glue nut just smaller than thread hole to the case and fill the opening with a mig weld

 

[Code54]

May want to try a left handed drill bit to extract it

 

[tjoreo]

Not very much help now, but I was kind of curious on the situation. I looked through the parts manuals and these bolts are the same ones on my 03 Foreman. They are a 6x18. I can't tell you the grade because there isn't any markings on the bolts. My manual for the Foreman says to torque them to 7 ft/lbs, so obviously there is a problem between the manuals. The bolts aren't different, so the torque shouldn't be any different. I used to torque mine to 7 with a torque wrench and they were fine, but after 10,000 miles I just torque them by hand. I'm wondering if there isn't some problem with oil getting in the bolt hole, being its the bottom hole, and actually like you said, it needs to reduce torque by 10%. Putting the new torque at 6 ft/lbs with 9 ft/lbs being 50% more then it needs. Just trying to shed a little light on everything. Good luck on the fix and obviously the manual is wrong and 9 is TOO much.

 

[Crookedcreek]

Actually, these are M5 bolts (with a 8mm hex head) and any graded bolt I've ever seen (metric or SAE) has the grade indicated in some fashion (metric with numbers, SAE with marks) on the head. I believe these are "soft" bolts to have stretched like that. Hard (graded) bolts that I've seen break, generally just snap and not stretch before breaking. If you look at the charts on torque capacity, even the highest grade metric of 12.9 is 7.5 lb. ft. for an M5 size bolt. 9 lb. ft. (108 lb. inch) is way too much. These stretched and broke somewhere between 5 lb.ft. (60 lb. inch) where my wrench "clicked" and 7 lb. ft. (84 lb. inch) where the wrench had not yet "clicked" when the bolt broke. So, the stretching had to have started at somewhere around (either side of) the 5 lb. ft. mark.

 

[joeymt33]

If these bolts are indeed metric (which I believe they are). The torque specs are probably listed in Newtons. 9 newtons is 2 lbs.

Does they manual actually say "9 ft-lbs"? If so, that may be the misprint.

 

[jak9922]

that's a good point joey and holy crap those bolts are crazy you are lucky all of them didnt snap off