P1000 Warn Winch drained battery or did the True UTV-SBI-18 not keep the 2nd battery charged?

[SuperDutyJohn]

How many seconds was the winch pulling? Been told by Warn, they aren't designed for much over a few seconds?????

Under load about 20 seconds then, free wheeling back in a long time to get 50' back in the spool. The instructions say nothing about short cycling the winch and as a matter of fact, they recommend you put a load on it to initially load the synthetic wire rope. It would take forever to use short bursts to even just load it for the first time. IMHO

 

[Admin]

 

[lee]

Had a look around and was suprised to see that Warn doesn't list a duty cycle, they only say it's 'intermittent'.
But I did find an analysis on line of a 9.5XP.

Winch comparison - Understanding winch ratings - mikesjeep.com

He theorizes a 77% duty cycle, meaning it can winch for 11 and 1/2 minutes out of a 15 minute period.
The actual duty cycle is unknown and he did not test 30 units to failure to discover a duty cycle.

We might assume that other products are designed with a similar spec.
However there may be a different spec between a full size vehicle and SxS winch.
So, my take on all this, pay attention to how hot the motor casing is if running the winch for more than 5 minutes continuous.
(The motor over heating as a failure point is an easy to evaluate parameter, there is also the possibility the motor power controller will melt first but its difficult to evaluate when balls deep in mud)

Interesting side note, the Badlands winch (from harbor freight) is theorized at a 5% duty cycle, 45seconds pulling at max load with 14 minutes 15 seconds cool down. Not my idea of a good value.

Edit: my bad, Warn uses a contactor to control the winch on or off. I was thinking of a high end controller that would be throttleable. So most likely duty cycle failure would be the motor over heating (my guess)

 

[JACKAL]

Had a look around and was suprised to see that Warn doesn't list a duty cycle, they only say it's 'intermittent'.
But I did find an analysis on line of a 9.5XP.

Winch comparison - Understanding winch ratings - mikesjeep.com

He theorizes a 77% duty cycle, meaning it can winch for 11 and 1/2 minutes out of a 15 minute period.
The actual duty cycle is unknown and he did not test 30 units to failure to discover a duty cycle.

We might assume that other products are designed with a similar spec.
However there may be a different spec between a full size vehicle and SxS winch.
So, my take on all this, pay attention to how hot the motor casing is if running the winch for more than 5 minutes continuous.
(The motor over heating as a failure point is an easy to evaluate parameter, there is also the possibility the motor power controller will melt first but its difficult to evaluate when balls deep in mud)

Interesting side note, the Badlands winch (from harbor freight) is theorized at a 5% duty cycle, 45seconds pulling at max load with 14 minutes 15 seconds cool down. Not my idea of a good value.

Maybe Smitty has been exposed to rebadged Badlands winches as WARN that would explain the few seconds cycle statement.

 

[Smitty335]

Maybe Smitty has been exposed to rebadged Badlands winches as WARN that would explain the few seconds cycle statement.

I have defiantly been exposed every way possible, but man enough to admit it, HA! Really a Warn rep told me that, he said if in a hard pull, let the winch rest a little??? I will start documenting this stuff with a notarized letter for back up for you, HA!

 

[JACKAL]

I have defiantly been exposed every way possible, but man enough to admit it, HA! Really a Warn rep told me that, he said if in a hard pull, let the winch rest a little??? I will start documenting this stuff with a notarized letter for back up for you, HA!

Nah just hang onto that Chamfered valves invoice from your dealership, that there is a golden ticket. If you only knew the mileage we have gotten out of that. LOL & Merry Christmas

 

[Smitty335]

Nah just hang onto that Chamfered valves invoice from your dealership, that there is a golden ticket. If you only knew the mileage we have gotten out of that. LOL & Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas to you and yours! Glad to have been able to provide some entertainment value, HA!

 

[RedFred1]

IMHO... the purpose of the isolator is to keep the main battery from draining. If anything, the winch battery should have died and not allowed the winch to work at all. The isolator should have cut out the secondary battery at ~12.6 volts. It should in no way have affected the main battery. While charging the secondary battery, the system should have been charging at ~14 volts or so. You should not have noticed any change in your primary battery or its function. The purpose of the isolator is to prevent these kinds of issues... that is where a separate volt meter on both batteries also comes in handy.

 

[Smitty335]

IMHO... the purpose of the isolator is to keep the main battery from draining. If anything, the winch battery should have died and not allowed the winch to work at all. The isolator should have cut out the secondary battery at ~12.6 volts. It should in no way have affected the main battery. While charging the secondary battery, the system should have been charging at ~14 volts or so. You should not have noticed any change in your primary battery or its function. The purpose of the isolator is to prevent these kinds of issues... that is where a separate volt meter on both batteries also comes in handy.

Got them!

 

[SuperDutyJohn]

Had a look around and was suprised to see that Warn doesn't list a duty cycle, they only say it's 'intermittent'.
But I did find an analysis on line of a 9.5XP.

Winch comparison - Understanding winch ratings - mikesjeep.com

He theorizes a 77% duty cycle, meaning it can winch for 11 and 1/2 minutes out of a 15 minute period.
The actual duty cycle is unknown and he did not test 30 units to failure to discover a duty cycle.

We might assume that other products are designed with a similar spec.
However there may be a different spec between a full size vehicle and SxS winch.
So, my take on all this, pay attention to how hot the motor casing is if running the winch for more than 5 minutes continuous.
(The motor over heating as a failure point is an easy to evaluate parameter, there is also the possibility the motor power controller will melt first but its difficult to evaluate when balls deep in mud)

Interesting side note, the Badlands winch (from harbor freight) is theorized at a 5% duty cycle, 45seconds pulling at max load with 14 minutes 15 seconds cool down. Not my idea of a good value.

Thank you for that; I in no way ran it for that long, it ran under load for about 30-45 seconds after thinking about it, 20 seconds was possibly a short call but in worst case scenario, 30 to 45 seconds. Then, about 5 minutes without load about 5 minutes later to wind it up.

 

[Smitty335]

Nah just hang onto that Chamfered valves invoice from your dealership, that there is a golden ticket. If you only knew the mileage we have gotten out of that. LOL & Merry Christmas

I was going to bring up the repair invoice copy , but it's CHRISTmas! spread the love of Christ this CHRISTmas.

 

[SuperDutyJohn]

IMHO... the purpose of the isolator is to keep the main battery from draining. If anything, the winch battery should have died and not allowed the winch to work at all. The isolator should have cut out the secondary battery at ~12.6 volts. It should in no way have affected the main battery. While charging the secondary battery, the system should have been charging at ~14 volts or so. You should not have noticed any change in your primary battery or its function. The purpose of the isolator is to prevent these kinds of issues... that is where a separate volt meter on both batteries also comes in handy.

That is what I think exactly happened, only I didn't have a volt meter on the Honda, I will now as of next week. The conditions you mention, happened exactly. After days of charging the auxiliary battery and running the machine for about an hour at home two times, the isolator comes on at the shut off of the machine and it buzzes, crackles and sizzles. I think I have a bad 3 month old isolator.

Does True warranty them or is it like all electrical parts, I'm screwed the first time I rely on it?

 

[SuperDutyJohn]

BTW, thanks for the replies people, Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas!

 

[Smitty335]

That is what I think exactly happened, only I didn't have a volt meter on the Honda, I will now as of next week. The conditions you mention, happened exactly. After days of charging the auxiliary battery and running the machine for about an hour at home two times, the isolator comes on at the shut off of the machine and it buzzes, crackles and sizzles. I think I have a bad 3 month old isolator.

Does True warranty them or is it like all electrical parts, I'm screwed the first time I rely on it?

Where did you mount your isolator? I mounted mine in the little recess that looked like it was made for, but I drilled holes and water proofed the isolator?????

 

[ToddACimer]

Had a look around and was suprised to see that Warn doesn't list a duty cycle, they only say it's 'intermittent'.
But I did find an analysis on line of a 9.5XP.

Winch comparison - Understanding winch ratings - mikesjeep.com

He theorizes a 77% duty cycle, meaning it can winch for 11 and 1/2 minutes out of a 15 minute period.
The actual duty cycle is unknown and he did not test 30 units to failure to discover a duty cycle.

We might assume that other products are designed with a similar spec.
However there may be a different spec between a full size vehicle and SxS winch.
So, my take on all this, pay attention to how hot the motor casing is if running the winch for more than 5 minutes continuous.
(The motor over heating as a failure point is an easy to evaluate parameter, there is also the possibility the motor power controller will melt first but its difficult to evaluate when balls deep in mud)

Interesting side note, the Badlands winch (from harbor freight) is theorized at a 5% duty cycle, 45seconds pulling at max load with 14 minutes 15 seconds cool down. Not my idea of a good value.

The Badlands winch also uses almost 1.5 times more power to do the same work. The 5% duty cycle is terrible but it uses 296 amps at 5000 lbs to pull just 6.1fpm. By comparison the Superwinch Terra45 pulls at 5.5 fpm while drawing only 178amps. I know people love to brag about how great a second battery is but setting up a robust and efficient electrical system is equally important. I wouldn't start with a Badlands winch.

 

[JACKAL]

IMHO... the purpose of the isolator is to keep the main battery from draining. If anything, the winch battery should have died and not allowed the winch to work at all. The isolator should have cut out the secondary battery at ~12.6 volts. It should in no way have affected the main battery. While charging the secondary battery, the system should have been charging at ~14 volts or so. You should not have noticed any change in your primary battery or its function. The purpose of the isolator is to prevent these kinds of issues... that is where a separate volt meter on both batteries also comes in handy.

IF....

If it was wired up correctly.

 

[SuperDutyJohn]

Where did you mount your isolator? I mounted mine in the little recess that looked like it was made for, but I drilled holes and water proofed the isolator?????

I mounted it just behind that recess, between the main battery and the and the air intake box.

I did wire the ground to the neutral on the main battery and that is wrong, the next one will be on the frame, I have a great sot behind the dash for frame ground now.

 

[Jensenj71]

You start with a 25AH battery rated at maybe a 20A load with less capacity at higher loads .... might only have 10AH of capacity at high load because the internal battery resistance becomes a significant additional load at high discharge rates.

200A load x 1 min = 3.3AH used

30A charge from stator x 1 min = 0.5AH

This seems pretty good, however lead acid batteries are charge limited and bulk charge is about 20% of AH rating or maybe 5A for 25AH battery. The 30A of the stator certainly can't be absorbed by a 25AH battery.

5A charge accepted x 1 min = 0.08AH per min or 5AH per hour, so recovering 3.3AH from 1min of winching could easily take an hour.

Finally, a lead acid battery can't sustain a 20% of rated AH charge to 100% charge and the charge accepted will decrease from 5A at 70% to nothing at 100%. A full recovery to 100% after 1min of winching would easily be more like 2hrs.

Significant winching would seem to require a larger 2nd battery and the stator charging capacity could still become the limiting factor. A full size Group 27 with 100AH capacity might winch for 20min. Additionally, the Group 27 could absorb 20A in bulk charge which would dramatically shorten recovery via 30A stator, however recovery of 60AH of capacity would take more than 4hrs.

Many of these limitations go away with a LiFePO4 battery, however the current draw of the winch would likely take a high current Group 27 100AH lithium battery. The battery wouldn't necessarily be heavier than 25AH AGM battery, however it would be 5X the cost. You could winch for 30mins and charge at full stator output of 30A back to 100%. Assuming the lithium battery can handle the current of the winch and your pocket can handle the $900 cost, you could winch about 10mins of every hour with a 30A stator.

These may not be exact numbers for some AGM batteries, however high performance AGM batteries are only marginally better.

 

[Jensenj71]

I apologize for the long post above, however it takes most of the mystery out of loads, batteries and charging systems.

 

[Smitty335]

I apologize for the long post above, however it takes most of the mystery out of loads, batteries and charging systems.

I think I will just try to ride smarter, HA!

 

[SuperDutyJohn]

I apologize for the long post above, however it takes most of the mystery out of loads, batteries and charging systems.

Thanks you for that explanation....I wish I understood it all! I'm a plumbing contractor and it was over my head!

I will say, reflecting back; I winched for about 45 seconds on the first winch; then, pulled him out with the Honda, I then recovered the full line (about 35') within about 2 minutes later. 20 minutes later I had to pull again (same machine, different driver) and pulled out into about 40' of range. This time, the machine was really stuck, I pulled for about 10 seconds and the winch stopped. For the record, I was off before I started up again, not idling, for the second recovery. I pressed on and the winch was dead with my Honda running at about 2,000 RPM. That's when I noticed the steering working real hard and not turning, I also noticed an electronic smoke smell.. At that point I gave up on the winch and just pulled the guy with my Honda. When in, I had another machine put a jumper cable on my second battery for about 5 minutes, my winch came back to life and was able to pull in the cable under no load, about 35' of rope. Then, my Wet Sounds 6 and Wet Sounds subwoofer shut off, they are hooked up to the AGM second battery, as well as the Warn 4,000 winch. I shut off my machine and it started back up like a champ, the isolator worked! Now, it's (True UTV-SBI-18) blue light is not on and after charging at home, it's blue light turned on for a few minutes and was sizzling, whistling and popping.

So, I guess my 2nd AGM battery can only handle about 30 seconds of hard pull and then wait an hour under high RPM's to do so again?