Engine Braking

[PA Crude]

Hi All.
I'm new to the side x side world,
I have had bikes my whole life...
My question is about engine braking on the pioneer.
I have test driven the Ranger... (NO engine braking)
The Viking... (strong engine braking)
How is the Pioneer?
Reason being my property is all hills. (25-35% grade)
Without gears like a bike... I'm thinking this is one of my biggest concerns.

Thank you for your feedback.

George

 

[idahohntr]

Engine braking is actually very good in my opinion- if you test drive a pioneer, you will notice the assist immediately

 

[PA Crude]

Thank you Idahohntr,
Just got back from my test ride.
Drove the Viking and the Pioneer ...
No comparison, the Honda was quieter and much less vibration.
I felt a bit of holdback just momentarily after letting off the accelerator.
Unfortunately was not able to take it on any hills.

Brakes felt a little strange.
I think I was the first to test ride this unit.

I guess the brakes have to break in?
Also smelled funny.... I guess lubricants burning off the new engine?

Ever notice this?

 

[Hondasxs]

Ya, the smell is just the new burning off. More then likely the same with the brakes if they have never been used.
Ya you can feel the braking on the Pioneer as soon as you let off the gas. With those belt driven units, most require you to stay on the gas to accomplish there "engine breaking". Most people, including me, cant understand giving a SxS more gas when you should be giving it less or none.

I haven't had a hill to test the engine braking on. But this coming weekend I will and will report back how I feel. I'm sure it will handle like my Rincon did.

 

[DG Rider]

Thank you Idahohntr,
Just got back from my test ride.
Drove the Viking and the Pioneer ...
No comparison, the Honda was quieter and much less vibration.
I felt a bit of holdback just momentarily after letting off the accelerator.
Unfortunately was not able to take it on any hills.

Brakes felt a little strange.
I think I was the first to test ride this unit.

I guess the brakes have to break in?
Also smelled funny.... I guess lubricants burning off the new engine?

Ever notice this?

Yes, brakes need break-in just like engine. Lots of metal coatings get burnt off as well, so strange smells are normal during the few hours. You can also expect increased fuel consumption and engine temps along with less horsepower during break in.

The last Pioneer i drove had just been assembled, and its brakes were pretty weak from not being broken in. The 1st one i drove had a few miles on it and the brakes were great. I feel confident that the Pioneer will have good braking.

I think the engine braking will be in-line with the gearing...that is, it won't hold back like a good manual shift Honda quad in 1st gear, or a CVT machine in low range. I recently drove a Rhino for the 1st time and was surprised at how high the gearing was. We can assume that the Viking probably has about the same gearing...so i think they may hold back just slightly better at lower speeds in high, but the Pioneer does have decent engine braking...far better than the "none" that Rangers have. Good enough not to be an issue.

Also be aware that the Pioneer uses input from the brake pedal to decide when to downshift, and to manipulate the idle bypass valve to deliver max engine braking, so if you weren't on the brakes, you weren't getting the most the Pioneer can deliver.

If all else fails, there has to be a dealer somewhere near a hill. Tell them you ain't gonna buy it until you take it down a steep grade. They'll do it.

 

[PA Crude]

Thank you for the good info!
Hondasxs I look forward to hear about your ride!
I agree...I do not want to give it gas going down steep hills.. :shock:

DG Rider,
I am glad to hear you experienced the weird brake feel as well.
I was concerned about that.
I would like to see how that brake engages the tranny to stay in the optimal gear...


I will have to look around for a dealer with a hill!
I'm pretty sure I'm set on the Pioneer.


George

 

[DG Rider]

I would like to see how that brake engages the tranny to stay in the optimal gear...

The Pioneer simply has a switch on the pedal telling the PCM if the brakes are engaged. As a result, the PCM commands the tranny to downshift sooner than it would just coasting ( to help with engine braking ). I felt this was readily apparent when test driving one.

That second bit about the IAC cutting off air was a bit of conjecture on my part. I seem to remember a press release blurb about the Rincon ( when it went fuel injected ) concerning the PCM "optimizing engine braking on deceleration", to paraphrase.

On a carbed bike, there is no control over the idle speed without manually adjusting the stop screw. On EFI, idle is controlled by the IAC ( idle air control ) valve...also known by various other names. Under normal idle operation, this valve bypasses the proper amount of air to maintain desired idle. When under engine braking at RPM above idle, the PCM could command the IAC to close completely, thus "choking" the engine to the max, and providing a little extra engine braking. This is the only thing that the press release i mentioned could be referring to, since there is no other control on the drive train that would do this.

Well...except maybe cutting the ignition completely while on closed throttle...but this is not as simple as it sounds, and the much more complex EFI/engine management systems on autos is just now being used to do this on some cars. The Rincon's EFI is comparatively dumb ( to modern autos ), so i don't see this being the explanation.

 

[Hondasxs]

Now that many of us have a chance to test the pioneer in real world situations. I was wondering if we could update this post with some real world examples.

Me. I found the breaking to be fine. True, it's no Foreman or trx300 but it is enough to control my decent. Sure I had my foot on the break but why would U be so stupid not to. In 4 wheel is where I had the best pull back. I have some other vids but can't get my software to edit them.

What's your take.

 

[b4hntn]

Only 11 miles so far in rolling hills, piney woods. Crossed a branch many times, slowed down on county road, etc. My take is the brake is not always needed and I use it last rather than first. Engine braking works fine in both transmission modes in deep woods or county road, 4x or 2x. Thanks for the info on using the brake first if I need to.

 

[Jerry3]

I tested out the engine braking with a 1000 lb trailer. I drove down a fairly steep road, and the machine maintained around 10 mph without using the brakes, I was pretty impressed.

 

[Manly bug]

I will venture to say I probably do about the most extreme "wheeling" with the Pioneer of anyone...and I find the engine breaking to be excellent. If it's truly steep and technical, you're going to want to ride the brakes of course to assist, but for most situations the engine braking is impressive.

The engine itself on the other hand...

 

[randi 58]

my works good

 

[PA Crude]

Thank you for resurrecting this post hondasxs.

This is all very good information ...
I am looking forward to getting my Pioneer real soon!

 

[Redrider]

For those that have owned a Honda manual, say Fourtrax300, or a Foreman. How much higher would you say the Pioneer's 1st gear?
I guess I am asking.
Would it be like riding in second gear?
thanks

 

[ohanacreek]

According to Honda info I could find, combined final ratio (primary, secondary, final, 1st gear reduction FORWARD)
First on a 300Fourtrax is 55:1(Rounded)
First on 700-4 is 24:1(rounded)
Third on 700-4 is 11 (rounded)

I would say it's different but there is a difference in engine power as well. The 300 was probably ½ or ⅓ the power output it wasn't fuel injected (the one I had wasn't anyway). Redline on the Pioneer is at 45 mph using the math I haven't needed since high school, that comes out to be about 3300 RPM on 25" tires.

25" tires are 6.544984694978736' in circumference
5280/that = 806.7245755441991 revolutions of a 25" tire to go one mile.

806.7245755441991x 45Miles gives you 36,302.60589948896 revolutions to go 45Miles

Divide that by 11.031 Final drive in 3rd gives you 3290 engine revolutions to go 45Miles

Someone check that.

 

[Newman100271]

Does anyone know how to disconnect the engine brake? I don't know why anyone would want to be jerked around everytime they take theirfoot of the gas for a second. It's the worst thing I have ever seen put on a ride. Wish I had never bout it. I thought honda made the best but there is now way that transmission will hold up with all the noise jurking around it does.

 

[JACKAL]

Does anyone know how to disconnect the engine brake? I don't know why anyone would want to be jerked around everytime they take theirfoot of the gas for a second. It's the worst thing I have ever seen put on a ride. Wish I had never bout it. I thought honda made the best but there is now way that transmission will hold up with all the noise jurking around it does.

@Newman100271 Welcome to the Club! To answer your question about engine braking there is no disconnect. I do not know if you have ever ridden in the mountains but for that type of terrain engine braking is a godsend in maintaining downhill speed control without excessive braking. You might find it better if you learn to let off the throttle slightly instead of completely, this will not cause the engine braking to be so pronounced and may improve your riding experience. It is all a matter of technique with the throttle.

 

[Hondasxs]

Does anyone know how to disconnect the engine brake? I don't know why anyone would want to be jerked around everytime they take theirfoot of the gas for a second. It's the worst thing I have ever seen put on a ride. Wish I had never bout it. I thought honda made the best but there is now way that transmission will hold up with all the noise jurking around it does.

Welcome @Newman100271,
Is this your first Honda product?
Been all through the mountains and down some major hills and never been jerked around. Sure it doesn't go into a neutral state like those belt things but it is far from "jerking around". Going back to what Jackal said, I think you just need some time learning how it operates. If you want to fly down the hill apply 1/4 throttle and try to maintain control. Stay safe.

 

[Newman100271]

@Newman100271 Welcome to the Club! To answer your question about engine braking there is no disconnect. I do not know if you have ever ridden in the mountains but for that type of terrain engine braking is a godsend in maintaining downhill speed control without excessive braking. You might find it better if you learn to let off the throttle slightly instead of completely, this will not cause the engine braking to be so pronounced and may improve your riding experience. It is all a matter of technique with the throttle.

Thinks for the advice I'm sure it would be a good thing if I lived in the mountains but I don't so it is only nucence. I will probably take a huge lost and get ride of the pice of junk and go buy something that works the way it should. You would think honda would make a way to disconnect something that aggravating

Welcome @Newman100271,
Is this your first Honda product?
Been all through the mountains and down some major hills and never been jerked around. Sure it doesn't go into a neutral state like those belt things but it is far from "jerking around". Going back to what Jackal said, I think you just need some time learning how it operates. If you want to fly down the hill apply 1/4 throttle and try to maintain control. Stay safe.

No I have had 3 and 4 wheelers before. I'm not wanting to fly down hills I just don't want to it slamming on brakes everytime I let off the gas for a second to slow down a bit.

 

[joeymt33]

Welcome to the forum @Newman100271. You have come to the right place to ask questions and expect to receive an honest and experienced answer.

Maybe there is an issue with the vehicle? I've never heard anyone complain about the engine braking before.

Also, those are quite harsh words saying that it's a piece of junk. Everyone has they're own opinion on preference on vehicles and features but to say it's junk because it's not your tastes doesn't make sense. The vast majority do prefer engine braking. I would definitely have someone check it out though if you think there is a problem.

Joe