P700 2015 Pionner 700, Clutch slipping. Need help

[henchmachine]

So after about 7000k miles my pioneer started to slip. First is was occasionally when it was cold and would just take a sec to get going but it gradually progressed to not even being able to move at anytime no matter what I did to it. I just recently check the line oil pressure and it was not measurable so according to the book I went in and replaced the Torque converter and the oil pump. The solenoids seems to be working as I hear the click on start up. Now that I have the machine back together it still barely moves if I put the right oil level in (according to the dipstick). It will slowly start in first gear and eventually get moving enough to shift to second then it holds at the rev limiter there.

So I added more oil and it slowly got better the more I drove it. The oil level is way above the indicated level but at least its somewhat working.

With the high oil level I did another oil line pressure test and it was actually pretty close to normal. Then did a 1st second third gear test and they are all low according to the gauge.

I know there are alot of forums out there talking about the slipping but after spending 1000$ and alot of time I was wondering if anyone else had some info.

Im using the honda 10w-40 Jaso oil btw

 

[Admin]

 

[Glock21user]

When you check the oil make sure you don't screw the dipstick back in to get the level.
It honestly sounds like a low oil level.

 

[henchmachine]

When you check the oil make sure you don't screw the dipstick back in to get the level.
It honestly sounds like a low oil level.

I made sure to not screw in the dip stick, I think some of it has to do with oil level but it’s way more than full. However, after I put it back together and it was working a little, as soon as I was on a side hill with the left driver side lower, it lost all power.
It will actually somewhere move forward when I add oil but it seems so be something else

 

[Mudwing]

Have you done a valve adjustment? The weak power kinda sounds like a camshaft issue but just throwing it out there.

 

[JPA2002]

Did you pull the first gear clutch pack and look at the clutches. I bet your oil pickup is clogged. It requires you to remove the engine and split the crankcase. Below are some pics. Burnt clutches from 1st gear pack on left, good clutches from 2nd and 3rd gear clutch pack.

This things require a pretty extensive tear down to get the engine out.

The one pic shows the engine with first gear pack installed(torque converter is removed).

Jon

 

[henchmachine]

Did you pull the first gear clutch pack and look at the clutches. I bet your oil pickup is clogged. It requires you to remove the engine and split the crankcase. Below are some pics. Burnt clutches from 1st gear pack on left, good clutches from 2nd and 3rd gear clutch pack.

This things require a pretty extensive tear down to get the engine out.

The one pic shows the engine with first gear pack installed(torque converter is removed).

Jon

View attachment 282482 View attachment 282483 View attachment 282484 View attachment 282485 View attachment 282486

I personally didn’t pull the first clutch pack. I took it to a shop and they did that. I don’t know if they even said the pack was burnt up.
After that didn’t work I went in and did the torque converter and oil pump myself. (Annoying that they didn’t just do that the first time around.)
While I was doing the torque converter I know in the manual it said to replace that screen but in my head I thought it seemed like such a small thing to cause this big of an issue, plus a real pain to remove and split the engine.
But now that you’re saying this I’m really regretting not going in and just doing it.

so do you think this would cause it to only connect and not slip occasionally? And secondly could I just take the front case cover off where the first clutch is and flush the contaminates out without splitting it? I could maybe remove the oil pump and blow it out and somehow flush it out of the case?

 

[henchmachine]

Did you pull the first gear clutch pack and look at the clutches. I bet your oil pickup is clogged. It requires you to remove the engine and split the crankcase. Below are some pics. Burnt clutches from 1st gear pack on left, good clutches from 2nd and 3rd gear clutch pack.

This things require a pretty extensive tear down to get the engine out.

The one pic shows the engine with first gear pack installed(torque converter is removed).

Jon

View attachment 282482 View attachment 282483 View attachment 282484 View attachment 282485 View attachment 282486

Thanks for you’re help Jon

 

[JPA2002]

Yes, the previous owner said it would move a little sometimes but got worse over time. As far as flushing, I highly doubt it works as the fibers are packed in there with the suction of the pump. It might be worth a try, and if I were to do that, I would remove the pump, blow brake cleaner or something like that through the tube and have some type of vacuum or suction trying to pull out the material. If might be worth a shot.
Jon

 

[JPA2002]

Thanks for you’re help Jon

Anytime. I do this as a hobby and I am glad to answer any questions.
Jon

 

[JPA2002]

This machine had 5500 miles on it.

Jon

 

[henchmachine]

This machine had 5500 miles on it.

Jon

View attachment 282528 View attachment 282529

Jon, So i did what you recommended and went to work splitting the case and looking for the back uptake tube. It was in fact very clogged and one of the clutches, either the 2nd or 3rd, was pretty burned out. So i repacked both of them and put it back together. When i started it up it sounded real good and started right up. The thing finally has power and doesn't seem to slip a bit. Now the issue is it wont shift past 1st. It runs good but when it gets to about 12 mph it feels like the engine brakes and stops all power. I'm not sure what this be. Its weird because before when the trans would slip it would rev up fine and did actually shift when there was enough pressure.

 

[JPA2002]

Well, I had the same issue when I started mine back up. Turns out I had forgot to plug in one of the electrical connectors to the shift solenoids. It could be one of your shift solenoids or maybe a bad torque converter. You can run some tests by checking oil pressure at different points. It can’t be much, sounds like you are almost there.

 

[HondaTech]

Just an FYI for anyone needing to pull a Pioneer 700 engine. They will drop out the bottom, no need to remove the cage. Unbolt the cradle move it forward then drop it down.

If you have a way to lift the machine up just a little bit then the engine with cradle will slide out from under the machine.

The pickup clogging is common on the Big Red, ive yet to see a Pioneer 700 with that issue, but being the same engine its going to happen.

My old service advisor always told us when the camshaft issue arose, the engine should be taken al the way apart and cleaned because that metal had to go somewhere.

I wonder if your camshaft could be worn as well? Sounds like that crud may have clogged other things up. Maybe try cleaning the valve body.

Also whenever we find a 700 with a clogged pickup, i just replace it. The screen can get sucked upwards due to the clogging and cause issues.

 

[henchmachine]

Just an FYI for anyone needing to pull a Pioneer 700 engine. They will drop out the bottom, no need to remove the cage. Unbolt the cradle move it forward then drop it down.

If you have a way to lift the machine up just a little bit then the engine with cradle will slide out from under the machine.

The pickup clogging is common on the Big Red, ive yet to see a Pioneer 700 with that issue, but being the same engine its going to happen.

My old service advisor always told us when the camshaft issue arose, the engine should be taken al the way apart and cleaned because that metal had to go somewhere.

I wonder if your camshaft could be worn as well? Sounds like that crud may have clogged other things up. Maybe try cleaning the valve body.

Also whenever we find a 700 with a clogged pickup, i just replace it. The screen can get sucked upwards due to the clogging and cause issues.

hmm i didn't necessarily get the camshaft specifically for ware but it looked fine just from when i took it apart and it the valve clearances were in spec when i put it all back together. I didn't clean the screen i just put a new one in but, I really wish they had some sort of access window a the bottom of the engine where you could clean that screen.

I'm thinking its something electrical because after I replaced the torque converter and oil pump but before I took it all apart and cleaned the screen it would shift but would slip due to the still clogged screen.

It doesnt give any check engine for flash anything on the guages when i drive it.

I can upload a video of what it drives like.

I also tried screwing in the emergency valve just to see what it would do and it drives the exact same, makes me think that its just stuck in limp mode. It felt like it was in 1st gear but it could be in second, idk been awhile since ive had the thing running good enough to tell haha.

 

[henchmachine]

Pioneer 700 shifting

youtube.com

Here’s the YouTube link, like I said it creeps when I put it into gear, the emergancy valve is not on in this video, and gets to 12-13 and dies like in the video. Thanks

 

[DG Rider]

Pioneer 700 shifting

youtube.com

Here’s the YouTube link, like I said it creeps when I put it into gear, the emergancy valve is not on in this video, and gets to 12-13 and dies like in the video. Thanks

The little "grrrr" sounds like it's trying to shift. Maybe cross-shifting (trying to engage 2 gears at once). There is a thread on here somewhere about this.

Also: go and find a Rincon service manual and download it. They go into much more detail about the hydraulic circuits for each gear, etc. Why Honda didn't include those in the Pioneer FSM I don't know.

 

[henchmachine]

The little "grrrr" sounds like it's trying to shift. Maybe cross-shifting (trying to engage 2 gears at once). There is a thread on here somewhere about this.

Also: go and find a Rincon service manual and download it. They go into much more detail about the hydraulic circuits for each gear, etc. Why Honda didn't include those in the Pioneer FSM I don't know.

I have a manual, I’m a little skeptical on the oil feed pipes on the front cover, I think I put it back together the right way but I don’t really understand how they work exactly, everything seems to be plugged in as far as I can tell

 

[DG Rider]

I have a manual, I’m a little skeptical on the oil feed pipes on the front cover, I think I put it back together the right way but I don’t really understand how they work exactly, everything seems to be plugged in as far as I can tell

P700 - Transmission problem

I am new on the 700 side as i have a 1000-5. My buddy has a 700-4 with 216hrs. The problem is when you put it in gear, forward or reverse and push thr gas pedal and it's like it locks up. The engine is under a load and wont move. You can let it idle and put it in gear and kinda lunges in either...

hondasxs.com

Here's that other thread. No solution, but I tagged the OP. May not even be the same problem...

 

[henchmachine]

Update on this in case it helps, I checked the oil line pressure and it’s crazy high. It was like 90 psi at idle and with any throttle goes up to past 150. Manual says 114 @ 5k rpm. I’m thinking the valve body must have a blockage or something?

 

[henchmachine]

took the throttle body off and clean it real well. reset the TP sensor, still no luck.. I'm stump at this point.