Can I run 4 rear wheels on a Talon x4?

[ArkansasTalon]

If so, how much wider does that make the machine? I'm assuming I'd need to add 1.5" spacers to the rear to even out the width. Also, do the 32's ride noticeably better than the 30's?

I am thinking that widening the machine might make it more stable in off-camber situations and might help offset raising the center of gravity by installing taller tires. Let me know if I'm way off here. My riding is mostly trails in the Ozarks with a yearly trip to the San Juan's as well.

Also, yes, I recently changed the tires on my Talon R, but now I also have a 4 seater. (It's a long story) 🙂

 

[CID]

@PaulF ? I think I've seen you speak to this, something about scrub radius or similar?

 

[PaulF]

@PaulF ? I think I've seen you speak to this, something about scrub steer or similar?

I gave up. No one listens to me and everyone just does what they want.

 

[Csxrailman50]

I’m thinking about the same thing. I bought a 2016 pioneer 1000-5 and it came with set of tires and rims exactly like the ones on it . So I put the larger extra rear tires on the front and did some measuring and here’s the results…. I’ve decided to add 1 inch spacers on the front to get a little more clearance on the inner fender well and that requires a 1.5 inch spacer on the rear to square everything back up. I’ll admit I’m new to all this side x side stuff so if anyone thinks this will cause issues let me know, as I haven’t done the project yet, thanks

 

[ArkansasTalon]

I gave up. No one listens to me and everyone just does what they want.

.......listening?

 

[ArkansasTalon]

Found this on a car web site. "Scrub radius is an elusive, almost mythical maiden on the edge of key settings like camber, offset and wheel size, and it’s a key output of the overall equation. Essentially it’s defined by the location of the point in space where an imaginary line traced down through the centre of the suspension column crosses the one drawn vertically down through the very centre of the tyre." It went on to detail some of the effects that positive vs negative scrub radius has on steering, turning, braking, etc.

Now, quoting PaulF from a question about buying a used machine.
"Contrary to popular belief, spacers on the front will make any rubbing WORSE, not better. It will also F up the scrub radius and make it steer funny and jerk the wheel out of your hand when you hit larger obstacles.

Stick with as close to the stock offset (+50mm) you can up front then run the same wheel in the rear with 1.5" spacers to even it up."

My takeaway from all that.........messing with the width of the front is generally a bad idea because of how it affects the steering and handling of the machine. It would seem to me that even changing the width of the front tires has to have at least a minor impact on scrub radius. I'm guessing it's just too minor to be noticed because I have already done that to another machine without any noticeable differences.

But, changing out wheel offsets or adding spacers to the front is a more radical change and will almost certainly cause negative steering and handling issues. Do I have that right?

 

[Hondasxs]

I gave up. No one listens to me and everyone just does what they want.

But we do appreciate you.

Kind of like "what's the largest tire"....
Cant say it but so many times.
And I have learned your limit is 1 time, maybe 2 on a good day.. hahaha

 

[PaulF]

Found this on a car web site. "Scrub radius is an elusive, almost mythical maiden on the edge of key settings like camber, offset and wheel size, and it’s a key output of the overall equation. Essentially it’s defined by the location of the point in space where an imaginary line traced down through the centre of the suspension column crosses the one drawn vertically down through the very centre of the tyre." It went on to detail some of the effects that positive vs negative scrub radius has on steering, turning, braking, etc.

Now, quoting PaulF from a question about buying a used machine.
"Contrary to popular belief, spacers on the front will make any rubbing WORSE, not better. It will also F up the scrub radius and make it steer funny and jerk the wheel out of your hand when you hit larger obstacles.

Stick with as close to the stock offset (+50mm) you can up front then run the same wheel in the rear with 1.5" spacers to even it up."

My takeaway from all that.........messing with the width of the front is generally a bad idea because of how it affects the steering and handling of the machine. It would seem to me that even changing the width of the front tires has to have at least a minor impact on scrub radius. I'm guessing it's just too minor to be noticed because I have already done that to another machine without any noticeable differences.

But, changing out wheel offsets or adding spacers to the front is a more radical change and will almost certainly cause negative steering and handling issues. Do I have that right?

Pretty much, you missed a couple things...

1. The scrub radius changes with tire diameter. Stock wheels are +50mm offset and stock tires are 28" diameter. To maintain the same scrub radius with different sized tires you would need...
   1. 30" tires with a +47 mm offset. No such thing but there are +45 and +50 available.
   2. 32" tires with a +45 mm offset.
   3. 35" tires with a +41 mm offset.
2. Most true 32" tires will rub on an X. The more square the tread, the more they will rub. Only way to fix it is to install forward swept control arms.

 

[PaulF]

I’m thinking about the same thing. I bought a 2016 pioneer 1000-5 and it came with set of tires and rims exactly like the ones on it . So I put the larger extra rear tires on the front and did some measuring and here’s the results…. I’ve decided to add 1 inch spacers on the front to get a little more clearance on the inner fender well and that requires a 1.5 inch spacer on the rear to square everything back up. I’ll admit I’m new to all this side x side stuff so if anyone thinks this will cause issues let me know, as I haven’t done the project yet, thanks

In case you missed it, I will make this as obvious and possible...

Contrary to popular belief, spacers on the front will make any rubbing WORSE, not better. It will also F up the scrub radius and make it steer funny and jerk the wheel out of your hand when you hit larger obstacles.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

In case you missed it, I will make this as obvious and possible...

Contrary to popular belief, spacers on the front will make any rubbing WORSE, not better. It will also F up the scrub radius and make it steer funny and jerk the wheel out of your hand when you hit larger obstacles.

With as many times as I've seen you post this and other wheel info on this site since I joined, you would think EVERYONE would have read at least one of your posts on this subject in the dozens of threads you have chimed in on about this..... Guess nobody uses the search function anymore and heads straight for the "spoon feed me" response.

You are a very patient man... 👍

 

[PaulF]

With as many times as I've seen you post this and other wheel info on this site since I joined, you would think EVERYONE would have read at least one of your posts on this subject in the dozens of threads you have chimed in on about this..... Guess nobody uses the search function anymore and heads straight for the "spoon feed me" response.

You are a very patient man... 👍

Yah, at this point it is mostly copy/paste but even that gets old.

 

[ArkansasTalon]

PaulF, Thank you for your reply. While I do understand your frustration in answering the same questions over and over again, to be fair, your quoted text _was_ buried in a thread about buying a used machine. That's not exactly the first place one would look if the question was about wheels and tires. I am not an everyday reader of this forum. I check in occasionally and I also use it for research if there's something I'm curious about.......like this question, or how many other users hear clattering when they shift into low.

All that to say, maybe this forum (and you as well) could benefit from a faq's section? Or at the least, a few of the most common topics stickied to the top?

 

[PaulF]

PaulF, Thank you for your reply. While I do understand your frustration in answering the same questions over and over again, to be fair, your quoted text _was_ buried in a thread about buying a used machine. That's not exactly the first place one would look if the question was about wheels and tires. I am not an everyday reader of this forum. I check in occasionally and I also use it for research if there's something I'm curious about.......like this question, or how many other users hear clattering when they shift into low.

All that to say, maybe this forum (and you as well) could benefit from a faq's section? Or at the least, a few of the most common topics stickied to the top?

I do however appreciate that you did in fact find some of the information he needed on your own. Most folks don't even look and just post the same questions over and over. It just get real old.

I have absolutely no control over this forum so any type of FAQ or Sticky is not for me to create. The subject is popular but if a sticky or FAQ hasn't been started by now, it probably never will be.

And a thread with the tire/wheel info would just get convoluted and then buried (like so many other threads about the subject already have). Threads tend to wonder and other (non-accurate) information and opinions make them useless.

 

[Remington]

Most folks don't even look and just post the same questions over and over. It just get real old.

Amen! See it all the time!
most of it is laziness IMO

 

[Hometeam]

Found this on a car web site. "Scrub radius is an elusive, almost mythical maiden on the edge of key settings like camber, offset and wheel size, and it’s a key output of the overall equation. Essentially it’s defined by the location of the point in space where an imaginary line traced down through the centre of the suspension column crosses the one drawn vertically down through the very centre of the tyre." It went on to detail some of the effects that positive vs negative scrub radius has on steering, turning, braking, etc.

Now, quoting PaulF from a question about buying a used machine.
"Contrary to popular belief, spacers on the front will make any rubbing WORSE, not better. It will also F up the scrub radius and make it steer funny and jerk the wheel out of your hand when you hit larger obstacles.

Stick with as close to the stock offset (+50mm) you can up front then run the same wheel in the rear with 1.5" spacers to even it up."

My takeaway from all that.........messing with the width of the front is generally a bad idea because of how it affects the steering and handling of the machine. It would seem to me that even changing the width of the front tires has to have at least a minor impact on scrub radius. I'm guessing it's just too minor to be noticed because I have already done that to another machine without any noticeable differences.

But, changing out wheel offsets or adding spacers to the front is a more radical change and will almost certainly cause negative steering and handling issues. Do I have that right?

I have an X and an R. And @PaulF is right with all of it and I have read almost all his post on it! (Paul I have listened) So to go to 32 on an x and have zero rubbing you will need to do forward a-arms. I did go to "32's" on System 3 wheels +38 offset (there 5+2) on my X without forward a-arms. My 32's are more like a 31.2-31.5 at 10psi. I also have a tire that has more of rounded profile than a flat. A rounder profile tire will typically handle in corners better. But I do rub some but I don't even notice it and it isn't a problem for me.....but I will eventually get the forward a-arms. Like Paul showed you can go with a slightly wider offset with taller tires and not mess up the scrub radius. My +38 is more than it should be with a 32" tire but the actual felt scrub on my setup is not noticeable with a +38 on 32's. I wanted it to be a little wider which was why I choose the +38. Now on my R I went with +45 so I could keep it closer to stock width and steering since is wider to start with. Cornering is one thing I enjoy a lot and would not have been happy if my X lost that with the +38. It still handles like mad and I have no negative feel in the handling of the X....or the R!!

 

[ArkansasTalon]

I have an X and an R. And @PaulF is right with all of it and I have read almost all his post on it! (Paul I have listened) So to go to 32 on an x and have zero rubbing you will need to do forward a-arms. I did go to "32's" on System 3 wheels +38 offset (there 5+2) on my X without forward a-arms. My 32's are more like a 31.2-31.5 at 10psi. I also have a tire that has more of rounded profile than a flat. A rounder profile tire will typically handle in corners better. But I do rub some but I don't even notice it and it isn't a problem for me.....but I will eventually get the forward a-arms. Like Paul showed you can go with a slightly wider offset with taller tires and not mess up the scrub radius. My +38 is more than it should be with a 32" tire but the actual felt scrub on my setup is not noticeable with a +38 on 32's. I wanted it to be a little wider which was why I choose the +38. Now on my R I went with +45 so I could keep it closer to stock width and steering since is wider to start with. Cornering is one thing I enjoy a lot and would not have been happy if my X lost that with the +38. It still handles like mad and I have no negative feel in the handling of the X....or the R!!

Thanks. That's all very helpful and useful to know. I noticed they make 31's. Would that make a difference with the rubbing? Or, is the right idea just to stick with 30's or change out the a-arms?

 

[Donzi18]

If so, how much wider does that make the machine? I'm assuming I'd need to add 1.5" spacers to the rear to even out the width. Also, do the 32's ride noticeably better than the 30's?

I am thinking that widening the machine might make it more stable in off-camber situations and might help offset raising the center of gravity by installing taller tires. Let me know if I'm way off here. My riding is mostly trails in the Ozarks with a yearly trip to the San Juan's as well.

Also, yes, I recently changed the tires on my Talon R, but now I also have a 4 seater. (It's a long story) 🙂

Did you ever get an answer to your question - can I run rear wheels on the front? I am wanting to purchase a set of 30-10-15” all away around my talon X. I’m thinking I would just find another set of rear rims so all four would be the same. Is that going to work?

Donzi

 

[CID]

Did you ever get an answer to your question - can I run rear wheels on the front? I am wanting to purchase a set of 30-10-15” all away around my talon X. I’m thinking I would just find another set of rear rims so all four would be the same. Is that going to work?

Donzi

Not if you want it to steer anything like stock. Using 4 rears will mess up your scrub radius. Since you want to use 4 of the same rim, use 4 fronts with 1-1/2" spacers on the rear (each side).

 

[stellarpod]

I have a 2019 Talon X. I saw @PaulF 's post about all-things wheel/tire/offset/scrub/ and took it to heart when making my purchasing decision recently. I ended up going with 30"x10R15 Tensor Regulators (thank you @Montecresto ) with STI HD9 15"x7, 6+1 beadlock wheels on all four corners, using 1-1/2" spacers on the back. I went 30" instead of 32" to assure no rubbing. I went with 15" wheels instead of 14" to assure no clearance issues with brake rotors. Could I have gone 14" and been ok? Perhaps, but I didn't want to chance it. This theoretically keeps the factory geometry close (not exactly, but close) to intact.

The few miles that I have run them since installation would suggest that PaulF's summation is correct, as I feel no particular difference in handling characteristics with the new combination other than the little bit of sluggishness (quite minimal actually) introduced by the bigger, heavier tires/wheels.

Given the price these days, buying wheels and tires can be an enormously stressful decision. My thanks to @PaulF and @Montecresto for their input, allowing me to make a more educated decision.

Steve

 

[Boxingdonk]

With a 6+1 (I know not the most accurate method) in the rear and a 1.5" spacer, since the wheel itself is skinnier by an inch as well as the tire (will be a 10" wide), would that give me an additional .5" clearance between my rear wheel and the suspension? While looking at my ride, it looks like if I was to go to 32s it would be VERY close to rubbing the lower shock bolt area. This is based on the stock wheel setup that is wider both wheel and tire though, but the tire I am going with is very square and true to size.