P1000 Clutch slipping Questions

[ohanacreek]

Machines are like computers, some people have constant computer issues. I often find that the issue is between the keyboard and chair.

People need to stop using non Honda synthetic oil outside the Honda oil specifications. Or stop blaming the manufacturer and look at the person servicing the machine that hypothetically thinks they know better than the engineers and designers.

Simple logic, why would a company design a machine to work with oil "a" and specify you to use it, if it would work better and last longer with oil "t"?

ESPECIALLY a company that has the reputation of reliability.

If you had no part in writing the service manual your "opinion" of what oil is better for a FACTORY machine than the oil specified in the owners manual or service manual, is just that an "opinion".

Saying you know better than a manufacturer who engineered, designed, crash and torture tested the machine in a state of the art facility with access to a full automotive/aerospace(AERO-Fing-SPACE, who here'd fly in a PolarisJet????)/marine/powersports manufactures technology and knowledge base.

Makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.

PM me your address if you think it's a service revenue or repeat replacement conspiracy and I'll send you a Polaris tinfoil hat.

 

[Admin]

 

[JACKAL]

Makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.

Just having fun with this but with modern technology of FLEXSEAL you can put a screen door on a sub :

 

[sthomp54]

I'd love to know what the secret ingredient is in this super secret honda oil, must be some good stuff if its the only thing that will work.

 

[ohanacreek]

Different additives cause the viscosities to change at different temperatures. Synthetic and Crude based also have different viscosity/temperature curves.

What has been rumored is the 1000 DCT has an oil temperature sensor that has a specific viscosity/temperature curve related to it and the computer varies the clutch pressure based on the oil temperature and therefore viscosity. Which is why a bad ground can affect shifting. An incorrect voltage/resistance (whatever measurement is being used by the sensor) is being provided and all hell breaks loose.

Kinda like using a 5.56 ballistics curve when calculating for a .50bmg trajectory.

That bullets not hitting anywhere close because you're not using the right curve.

 

[JACKAL]

I'd love to know what the secret ingredient is in this super secret honda oil, must be some good stuff if its the only thing that will work.

I think it is not what is does have but what it doesn't have (molybdenum added) that is why it is recommended. This is so the clutches will not get glazed from an additive that may or may not result in premature failure. So for the warranty period, if this is the manufacturer's guaranteed assurance it is best to use why not use it? In the end everybody owns their machine and can do with it as they wish, but those that knowingly choose to ignore the manufaturer's recommendations and then have a problem shouldn't be griping about the manufacuterer when something they chose to do (oil / bigger tires / other major mods) might have been the actual contributing factor to the issue experienced.

 

[walexa07]

Maybe I haven't been totally plugged in to the clutch failures, but I thought several had nothing to do with the oil - owners were using Honda oil. I thought Jackal used Rotella and had problems, but I have read of others that have used Amsoil with no issues. Don't get me wrong - I think it's wise to use the Honda oil at least while the jury is out. I honestly think it's an assembly issue for the most part. Of course you will have some people that abuse their machine but I still think it should take alot of abuse to do one in - not something that can be destroyed easily. If they are as easy to destroy as a belt, I'd pick the belt as they are cheaper/easier to change. Again, I think most that have had the problem are assembly issues; maybe even oil pressure, lack of ground, etc. But the design itself should hold up to abuse pretty good. Just my opinion as I'm no expert. Anxious to see if Honda makes any changes to the 2017 P1K.

Waylan

 

[ohanacreek]

Side note motorcycle oils also DO NOT contain friction modifiers!

Auto oils do, because you aren't dealing with a wet clutch in an automobile.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER add an additive like Slick50 to engine oil of a vehicle with a wet clutch.

 

[JACKAL]

Maybe I haven't been totally plugged in to the clutch failures, but I thought several had nothing to do with the oil - owners were using Honda oil. I thought Jackal used Rotella and had problems, but I have read of others that have used Amsoil with no issues. Don't get me wrong - I think it's wise to use the Honda oil at least while the jury is out. I honestly think it's an assembly issue for the most part. Of course you will have some people that abuse their machine but I still think it should take alot of abuse to do one in - not something that can be destroyed easily. If they are as easy to destroy as a belt, I'd pick the belt as they are cheaper/easier to change. Again, I think most that have had the problem are assembly issues; maybe even oil pressure, lack of ground, etc. But the design itself should hold up to abuse pretty good. Just my opinion as I'm no expert. Anxious to see if Honda makes any changes to the 2017 P1K.

Waylan

I think the "chigaderra" is changed for 2017.

 

[walexa07]

I think the "chigaderra" is changed for 2017.

Chigaderra? I tried to look up translation but didn't work..............

 

[ohanacreek]

Maybe I haven't been totally plugged in to the clutch failures, but I thought several had nothing to do with the oil - owners were using Honda oil. I thought Jackal used Rotella and had problems, but I have read of others that have used Amsoil with no issues. Don't get me wrong - I think it's wise to use the Honda oil at least while the jury is out. I honestly think it's an assembly issue for the most part. Of course you will have some people that abuse their machine but I still think it should take alot of abuse to do one in - not something that can be destroyed easily. If they are as easy to destroy as a belt, I'd pick the belt as they are cheaper/easier to change. Again, I think most that have had the problem are assembly issues; maybe even oil pressure, lack of ground, etc. But the design itself should hold up to abuse pretty good. Just my opinion as I'm no expert. Anxious to see if Honda makes any changes to the 2017 P1K.

Waylan

Nail.on.the.head.

Also lot of rumors but very little fact.
Also who's going to admit on a public forum that a manufacturer could be reading that they screwed up? So as to possibly void a warranty.

 

[ohanacreek]

Chigaderra? I tried to look up translation but didn't work..............

Can't be good, I wouldn't repeat a word if you're not sure what it means, never know who does.

 

[JACKAL]

Chigaderra? I tried to look up translation but didn't work..............

Loosely translated from Spanish it means, "that f@#!kin thing." It's an inside joke, sorry I can't explain further.

But regarding the clutches, non dumping beds or anything else that doesn't live up to expectations........

 

[sharp]

I keep thinking mine are getting worse then I think they are getting better. I have decided to just run the dog crap out of it until it won't run anymore.

It's psychological if you read too deep into the forum! I was doing the same thing. Now I don't care I just ride it. I believe the clutch thing is absolutely isolated to a few over all!

 

[faulkner]

TL;DR

Those that have had clutch slipping issues, do you drive predominantly in High Range or Low Range?

More information below:

I am still undecided about getting a P1000 but I am still thinking about it. I have been doing research on the clutch slipping issue. While I am not an expert in clutch design, I do have some basic knowledge on how they work and a BSME.

Basic assumptions/knowledge. A basic clutch works by having two friction "pads" that touch each other and "lock" together. The holding force of this "lock" is directly proportional to their frictional load, which is the friction constant (mu) X the clamping force (Normal). The friction constant (Mu) is controlled by the material the clutch plates are made of and the force (Normal) is controlled by the machine. In a hydraulic clutch, this is controlled by a hydraulic pump. The forces that want to decouple the clutch are the engine torque and the resistive force from the rest of the drive train (wheels, tires, weight of the machine, load etc.) When the load on the output or input shaft is greater than the frictional force, the clutch will slip.

So anything that increases the load on either the output or the input that doesn't also increase the pressure on the clutch plates will cause them to slip.

Now, I don't own a P1000 and I have only sat in one. But the way I understand it's operation is that is has a low range and a high range, much like a CVT transmission. The low range uses a sub-transmission that has a "smaller" drive gear than the high range. This gives a greater mechanical advantage for the engine and it requires the engine to run at a much higher RPM. In theory, this will also drive the oil pump harder, which should give more "Normal" load onto the clutches and increase their clamping force. Running the same thing in "high range" will result in lower clamp forces and the clutches will slip at a lower drive train load.

Now to the meat of my post. Most of the Youtube videos that I have been seeing online, at least the ones that show the dash (with the exception of one), are showing that people are putting the machine in High Range. Those that don't show the dash, but have the sound on, definitely sound like they are in High Range (versus the one I know was in Low Range)

Those of you that have had clutch slipping issues, did you drive predominantly in High Range or Low Range? I don't mean to disparage anyone with this question at all. Originally my thought was that you should just drive around in High Range all the time unless you needed low end torque but I think this drive train is setup more like a CVT type of setup in which you should be in Low Range for everything other than fast driving on a flat level surface (like a road).

The only way that I can figure out that Honda can fix this would be to either increase the oil pump "strength" or change out to a more aggressive (better Mu) clutch plate.

What do you guys think?

 

[faulkner]

TL;DR

Those that have had clutch slipping issues, do you drive predominantly in High Range or Low Range?

More information below:

I am still undecided about getting a P1000 but I am still thinking about it. I have been doing research on the clutch slipping issue. While I am not an expert in clutch design, I do have some basic knowledge on how they work and a BSME.

Basic assumptions/knowledge. A basic clutch works by having two friction "pads" that touch each other and "lock" together. The holding force of this "lock" is directly proportional to their frictional load, which is the friction constant (mu) X the clamping force (Normal). The friction constant (Mu) is controlled by the material the clutch plates are made of and the force (Normal) is controlled by the machine. In a hydraulic clutch, this is controlled by a hydraulic pump. The forces that want to decouple the clutch are the engine torque and the resistive force from the rest of the drive train (wheels, tires, weight of the machine, load etc.) When the load on the output or input shaft is greater than the frictional force, the clutch will slip.

So anything that increases the load on either the output or the input that doesn't also increase the pressure on the clutch plates will cause them to slip.

Now, I don't own a P1000 and I have only sat in one. But the way I understand it's operation is that is has a low range and a high range, much like a CVT transmission. The low range uses a sub-transmission that has a "smaller" drive gear than the high range. This gives a greater mechanical advantage for the engine and it requires the engine to run at a much higher RPM. In theory, this will also drive the oil pump harder, which should give more "Normal" load onto the clutches and increase their clamping force. Running the same thing in "high range" will result in lower clamp forces and the clutches will slip at a lower drive train load.

Now to the meat of my post. Most of the Youtube videos that I have been seeing online, at least the ones that show the dash (with the exception of one), are showing that people are putting the machine in High Range. Those that don't show the dash, but have the sound on, definitely sound like they are in High Range (versus the one I know was in Low Range)

Those of you that have had clutch slipping issues, did you drive predominantly in High Range or Low Range? I don't mean to disparage anyone with this question at all. Originally my thought was that you should just drive around in High Range all the time unless you needed low end torque but I think this drive train is setup more like a CVT type of setup in which you should be in Low Range for everything other than fast driving on a flat level surface (like a road).

The only way that I can figure out that Honda can fix this would be to either increase the oil pump "strength" or change out to a more aggressive (better Mu) clutch plate.

What do you guys think?

 

[walexa07]

Got to love it when someone is on the forum one day and they have the clutch problems all figured out!!