P1000 Dual battery, no power without key

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tgillespie

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Spent this morning adding a second battery to my machine. I used the True isolator and followed their wiring. I was under the impression that my accessories/winch would get power from the second battery without having the key in. I have the warn winch and oem switch plate harness. Any ideas on where to troubleshoot as it would be nice to run the soundbar without the key.
 
DRZRon1

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you need to post pics of machine, this site likes pictures is what I learned

do they work with key on and don't work with key off?

need print, sketch, pics of wiring, etc - where is 12v positive sourced from for your accessories?
 
Hondasxs

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Hi.
Most winches wiring setups have a trigger wire. This is and should be left on the key-on circuit.
While the primary power comes from the second battery the key-on wire turns it on and off.

Of course you can change it if you want.
Same with your oem fuse box.
 
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tgillespie

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I'll take photos tomorrow. Looking at some diagrams, I see the key-on circut wire. I followed the winch remote wires back into the cab, and there was a separate wire branching off, but I couldn't see where it went. Will update you tomorrow.
 
Hondasxs

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I'll take photos tomorrow. Looking at some diagrams, I see the key-on circut wire. I followed the winch remote wires back into the cab, and there was a separate wire branching off, but I couldn't see where it went. Will update you tomorrow.
If its OEM Honda winch, it went to the back of the Accessory socket.
I recommend leaving the winch on key-on.
If you want your fuse to be key-off you need to find that wire and move it to a switch.
 
Plowboy1466

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So the True isolator's only function is to realize when the main battery is charged enough to send charging power to the second battery. If you want key on or key off battery power, it can be found under the front hood with a test light.
 
Vikes79

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FWIW I have my winch remote wired direct, but the dash winch switch is key on.

I did this way so that if I had electrical or other crazy problems that wouldn’t pull the relay , I could still get it winched on the trailer or for times I don’t want to have the key on just to make some simple winch pulls in the shop or something.
 
bumperm

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I prefer to have the winch wired direct to the Aux battery, that way it's available regardless of key on or off (if you need to winch and cannot run the engine for some reason (upside down?), why would you want to load down the main battery by needing to have "key-on"? I do have a small "enable/kill" switch on the dash that has to be on to provide power to the winch wireless remote receiver - that way stray RFI cannot activate the winch and potentially cause damage. Also, running the winch on the Aux battery means that when you get out of whatever you're in, you have the main battery to get things running again.
 
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tgillespie

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I prefer to have the winch wired direct to the Aux battery, that way it's available regardless of key on or off (if you need to winch and cannot run the engine for some reason (upside down?), why would you want to load down the main battery by needing to have "key-on"? I do have a small "enable/kill" switch on the dash that has to be on to provide power to the winch wireless remote receiver - that way stray RFI cannot activate the winch and potentially cause damage. Also, running the winch on the Aux battery means that when you get out of whatever you're in, you have the main battery to get things running again.
I have the winch wired directly to the aux battery, but the remote is wired into the key-on, only allowing it to operate if the key is... on. From my understanding, I could pull that, but I don't want kids operating the winch without the key present. Sounds like others wire in a switch, but knowing me, it would always get left on as I use my winch frequently to plow and pull logs.
 
bumperm

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I have the winch wired directly to the aux battery, but the remote is wired into the key-on, only allowing it to operate if the key is... on. From my understanding, I could pull that, but I don't want kids operating the winch without the key present. Sounds like others wire in a switch, but knowing me, it would always get left on as I use my winch frequently to plow and pull logs.
I haven't measured "key-on" static current draw - the amount of current all the on-board computers and electronics use when you turn on the key but don't start Mr. Motor. I'll do that and post what I find. Key-on would be unnecessary additional battery loading IF you cannot run the engine so the alternator can help out with the winching chores. This scenario may be unlikely when using the True or similar battery management system, as with engine off the "key-on" main battery voltage will likely not be high enough to allow the main to help the aux. So if the winch is on the Aux battery, and the engine cannot be run, it would not be good to require "key-on" for winching. All you'd be doing is further draining the main battery during the retrieval, then risking a problem when it come time to start the engine. Maybe better to have a hidden switch or a key-lock switch to disable the winch wireless receiver to prevent kids messing with it, the idea being to disable that receiver at all times when not needed. That way there's no risk that spurious radio frequency interference will turn on the winch uncommanded to damage things.
 
Hondasxs

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@bumperm,
I guess we will be set to agree to disagree. fair? lol.
Everyone has their own needs. Mine is below.

My reasoning for key-on are mainly for safety and to teach yourself to keep the motor running while winching.
While cutoff switches are nice, it adds an extra layer to the issue and no way prevents a kid from turning it on. Sure you can hide it but they will find it. Can you imagine a kid finding a hidden button? 100% they will push it and when it lights up the winch that will be pushed next. Guaranteed.

In regards to keeping the motor running to offset high draw power loss. Sure you can't do that upside down. But your reasoning for saving the primary is minuscule as you only have about 2 minutes of decent winching time before the second battery will no longer pull. If your primary cant hold the small factory load plus the 2 amps the winch needs for 2 minutes then there are other issues that need to be looked into.

Honestly,
It makes no difference which way you choose.
Decide what your need and choose.
 
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Vikes79

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I have the winch wired directly to the aux battery, but the remote is wired into the key-on, only allowing it to operate if the key is... on. From my understanding, I could pull that, but I don't want kids operating the winch without the key present. Sounds like others wire in a switch, but knowing me, it would always get left on as I use my winch frequently to plow and pull logs.
Here is how mine is setup. I use the remote to run the winch in the winter for plowing. This way I can shift and operate the up/down of the plow at same time. My left hand runs the suicide knob on the wheel. No wasted time and I can move snow like mad.

Image


I have two trigger wires. The remote trigger is connected directly to the auxiliary battery (same for winch) and the dash switch is powered when my relay pulls in when the key is on. It’s dead when the key is off.

in the summer I use the dash switch, and hook up remote only when needed. In winter I leave the remote hooked up but my kids are older and I plow snow a lot. Simply disconnect remote if your worried about it.

best of both ways.
 
Plowboy1466

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Here is how mine is setup. I use the remote to run the winch in the winter for plowing. This way I can shift and operate the up/down of the plow at same time. My left hand runs the suicide knob on the wheel. No wasted time and I can move snow like mad.

View attachment 366559

I have two trigger wires. The remote trigger is connected directly to the auxiliary battery (same for winch) and the dash switch is powered when my relay pulls in when the key is on. It’s dead when the key is off.

in the summer I use the dash switch, and hook up remote only when needed. In winter I leave the remote hooked up but my kids are older and I plow snow a lot. Simply disconnect remote if your worried about it.

best of both ways.
That's exactly what l did but l put a hidden switch to kill power to the relay inside the glovebox. Again, kids will be kids. And l like all of my digits.
 
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tgillespie

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Here is how mine is setup. I use the remote to run the winch in the winter for plowing. This way I can shift and operate the up/down of the plow at same time. My left hand runs the suicide knob on the wheel. No wasted time and I can move snow like mad.

View attachment 366559

I have two trigger wires. The remote trigger is connected directly to the auxiliary battery (same for winch) and the dash switch is powered when my relay pulls in when the key is on. It’s dead when the key is off.

in the summer I use the dash switch, and hook up remote only when needed. In winter I leave the remote hooked up but my kids are older and I plow snow a lot. Simply disconnect remote if your worried about it.

best of both ways.
This seems ideal. Didn't think about pulling the remote in the summer months. Kids don't touch the machine in the winter and I plow a lot as well. Maybe I'll add switch for key-on and move the remote directly wired. Any wiring diagrams handy that make this easier to process?
 
bumperm

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I used a "clamp on" type DC amp meter* to measure "key-on" current used by the vehicle electronics (all accessories and lights switched off). Current draw was 3.3 amps. Frankly, I expected it to be more. Winding in the winch cable with no load can draw 20+ amps and 250 amps or so at high load.

Note that running the engine at idle will not significantly help supply winch current demand. The engine rpm needs to be up to get that up to 50 amps IIRC.

*Clamp on meter is not typically as accurate as a series connected amp meter, but close enough for this test.
 
Rayger143

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@bumperm,
I guess we will be set to agree to disagree. fair? lol.
Everyone has their own needs. Mine is below.

My reasoning for key-on are mainly for safety and to teach yourself to keep the motor running while winching.
While cutoff switches are nice, it adds an extra layer to the issue and no way prevents a kid from turning it on. Sure you can hide it but they will find it. Can you imagine a kid finding a hidden button? 100% they will push it and when it lights up the winch that will be pushed next. Guaranteed.

In regards to keeping the motor running to offset high draw power loss. Sure you can't do that upside down. But your reasoning for saving the primary is minuscule as you only have about 2 minutes of decent winching time before the second battery will no longer pull. If your primary cant hold the small factory load plus the 2 amps the winch needs for 2 minutes then there are other issues that need to be looked into.

Honestly,
It makes no difference which way you choose.
Decide what your need and choose.
I 100% agree with this. I always have the engine running when winching. Doesn't matter which battery that you're connected to because if you have to winch without the engine running you don't have a lot of time to get the job done. I just hope that it's to get it on a trailer. Anything else and you've got bigger problems than a dead battery, and at this point you will need help with another machine or vehicle for recovery anyways. I've often wondered why this subject comes up. My winch was installed at the dealer and I have left it on the main battery. I added the dash switch from the club store and still have the wired remote for when I want to operate it from outside. No key, no winch.
 
bumperm

bumperm

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I 100% agree with this. I always have the engine running when winching. Doesn't matter which battery that you're connected to because if you have to winch without the engine running you don't have a lot of time to get the job done. I just hope that it's to get it on a trailer. Anything else and you've got bigger problems than a dead battery, and at this point you will need help with another machine or vehicle for recovery anyways. I've often wondered why this subject comes up. My winch was installed at the dealer and I have left it on the main battery. I added the dash switch from the club store and still have the wired remote for when I want to operate it from outside. No key, no winch.

That's fine, as far as it goes. But just having the engine running at idle is probably close to a wash as far as benefit of alternator output available is concerned. It's rated 50 amp output is at 5,000 rpm, so at idle it may be able to keep up with normal systems load (maybe - - I haven't tested, but it's on my to do list). So before you start feeling real good about running the engine to "keep up" while winching, you're gonna need to keep your foot on the gas, or install a manual throttle, to net any significant alternator help. Even reeling in a slack winch line takes over 20 amps, and that winch current load can go to 200 - 250 amps with heavy winching. Most all of that by design must come from the battery.

If anyone has made actual measurements, I'd sure be interested, please post.
 
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