Fixed//Front final clutch / i4wd freezing front wheels - wont turn

[mannysgalaxy]

OK So back on it. Code 103, Iw4d light, front passenger side wheel frozen.

To restate from the beginning:

-Had my vehicle all apart doing extensive mods (susp, eps, rack, hubs, knuckles, turbo, etc).
-Put it back together. Put in a new battery in the dark and had the wrong battery (poles rev) fried the 50amp.
-Put in a new 50 amp and my front wheels were frozen. Originally i thought the front brakes were frozen by the i4wd. I pulled them, wasn't the issue - so figured i had binding on diff when i reinstalled it. so i pulled the diff and reinstalled it, axles spun fine. -Put 12v power on it and it happened again, front wheels completely locked all gears.

Fast forward to today.

1. Lifted vehicle pulled wheels, pulled front brake calipers.
2. Put in a diff PCM.
3. Front left rotates, front right completely frozen.
4. Still code 103 with i4wd light.
5. Swapped ECU back.
6. same - Front left rotates, front right completely frozen.
7. Started vehicle. Rear wheels and front left are fine (front left spins in i4wd, can spin by hand in 2wd/p/n), front right is completely frozen all gears. Front driveshaft spins normal.
8. Disconnected Green iw4d front clutch 2p wire - no effect
9. Disconnected grey vs sensor 3p connector - no effect

*The manual says to change the i4wd module for a code 103 once continuity testing is done on page 25-51. i4wd light points to it.
*On page 18-31 in the inspection of front clutch section, it says to check front wheel free spin in park. then disconnect 4wd clutch green connector 2P and apply 12v power directly to the clutch side of the connector - "when battery is connected it is normal if the front wheel is locked"

So it's pretty clear the front clutch is malfunctioning - acting like it has 12v power even when not connected to power and with connectors disconnected. and only to the passenger side. anyone ever take it apart and see where the green connector hard line goes?

I have a spare i4wd module I am going to swap it in tomorrow but am thinking that's not the issue. i hope it is but doubt it

trying to rule everything out b4 getting a new front clutch. manual doesn't talk about the ecu inside it, only that brief inspection procedure. I will also put 12v power on it and see if i can freeze both wheels on command. but even if it resets both super sketchy having a risk of a front wheel locking on u. Only other thing i didnt do is change the 4wd relay in the back, fuses are all good but didnt swap that, although not sure how that could cause this.

appreciate any thoughts

 

[Rayger143]

OK So back on it. Code 103, Iw4d light, front passenger side wheel frozen.

To restate from the beginning:

-Had my vehicle all apart doing extensive mods (susp, eps, rack, hubs, knuckles, turbo, etc).
-Put it back together. Put in a new battery in the dark and had the wrong battery (poles rev) fried the 50amp.
-Put in a new 50 amp and my front wheels were frozen. Originally i thought the front brakes were frozen by the i4wd. I pulled them, wasn't the issue - so figured i had binding on diff when i reinstalled it. so i pulled the diff and reinstalled it, axles spun fine. -Put 12v power on it and it happened again, front wheels completely locked all gears.

Fast forward to today.

1. Lifted vehicle pulled wheels, pulled front brake calipers.
2. Put in a diff PCM.
3. Front left rotates, front right completely frozen.
4. Still code 103 with i4wd light.
5. Swapped ECU back.
6. same - Front left rotates, front right completely frozen.
7. Started vehicle. Rear wheels and front left are fine (front left spins in i4wd, can spin by hand in 2wd/p/n), front right is completely frozen all gears. Front driveshaft spins normal.
8. Disconnected Green iw4d front clutch 2p wire - no effect
9. Disconnected grey vs sensor 3p connector - no effect

*The manual says to change the i4wd module for a code 103 once continuity testing is done on page 25-51. i4wd light points to it.
*On page 18-31 in the inspection of front clutch section, it says to check front wheel free spin in park. then disconnect 4wd clutch green connector 2P and apply 12v power directly to the clutch side of the connector - "when battery is connected it is normal if the front wheel is locked"

So it's pretty clear the front clutch is malfunctioning - acting like it has 12v power even when not connected to power and with connectors disconnected. and only to the passenger side. anyone ever take it apart and see where the green connector hard line goes?

I have a spare i4wd module I am going to swap it in tomorrow but am thinking that's not the issue. i hope it is but doubt it

trying to rule everything out b4 getting a new front clutch. manual doesn't talk about the ecu inside it, only that brief inspection procedure. I will also put 12v power on it and see if i can freeze both wheels on command. but even if it resets both super sketchy having a risk of a front wheel locking on u. Only other thing i didnt do is change the 4wd relay in the back, fuses are all good but didnt swap that, although not sure how that could cause this.

appreciate any thoughts

I know nothing about i4wd but I have read on some posts here that wheel speed sensors can cause grief. That is my only thought. Good luck to you

 

[906UP]

I'm trying to follow your latest post but there's a lot going on there, I'm sure it makes sense to you but help us help you....

"after reinstalling the diff the axles spun fine" was the driveshaft not connected yet?

The driveshaft clutch just connects the shaft to the front diff pinion, it can not affect just one axle, it's just not possible. There has to be something mechanical binding the RF axle.

You mentioned this started after extensive mods.....hubs & knuckles. I'm betting that's where the problem lies, maybe put the stock suspension parts back on and see what happens

 

[Hondasxs]

I'm trying to follow your latest post but there's a lot going on there, I'm sure it makes sense to you but help us help you....

"after reinstalling the diff the axles spun fine" was the driveshaft not connected yet?

The driveshaft clutch just connects the shaft to the front diff pinion, it can not affect just one axle, it's just not possible. There has to be something mechanical binding the RF axle.

You mentioned this started after extensive mods.....hubs & knuckles. I'm betting that's where the problem lies, maybe put the stock suspension parts back on and see what happens

I agree,
While you might have some i4wd issues from the battery miss-install, there is no way this is causing a full lockup. It has to be mechanical.
If both front tires are free in 2x4 but locked up when in 4x4, then the issue is at the 4x4 clutch.
Still, even if the clutch was broken and frozen up, both tires would still turn with slight force opposite rotation each other.
and that's where I'm lost at.

 

[DRZRon1]

I'm trying to follow your latest post but there's a lot going on there, I'm sure it makes sense to you but help us help you....

"after reinstalling the diff the axles spun fine" was the driveshaft not connected yet?

The driveshaft clutch just connects the shaft to the front diff pinion, it can not affect just one axle, it's just not possible. There has to be something mechanical binding the RF axle.

You mentioned this started after extensive mods.....hubs & knuckles. I'm betting that's where the problem lies, maybe put the stock suspension parts back on and see what happens

what he said - you didn't by chance have the front diff apart? are there new axles involved, etc..? you try the frozen wheel with the axle out?

im guessing here - the electric clutch engager is just a coil or what I call bang bang (off - on) control or something similar that engages the pinion ?

 

[Hondasxs]

im guessing here - the electric clutch engager is just a coil or what I call bang bang (off - on) control or something similar that engages the pinion ?

Correct.

 

[john790]

I thought the i4wd was like a anti lock system.So i wonder if his bike thinks the right front is spinning.Or mechanical.

 

[906UP]

I thought the i4wd was like a anti lock system.So i wonder if his bike thinks the right front is spinning.Or mechanical.

It is, sort of an electronic traction control, using the front brakes to control spin. The OP said it was locked up even with the caliper off, there is nothing else electronically controlled, the issue has to be mechanical

 

[john790]

But does it do that with the brakes or inside off front diff ?.I wonder if it has a blown diode somewhere keeping the coil on.

 

[CID]

But does it do that with the brakes or inside off front diff ?.I wonder if it has a blown diode somewhere keeping the coil on.

I don't know if the clutch is 'latching' - stays on once energized or if it needs continuous power to stay engaged. If it needs power to stay engaged, wouldn't that run the battery down, in this case? --> because it's always on?

Details - My early career was in electro-mechanical. We had 2 types of relays, those that would only be operated if they had voltage applied and they'd release when voltage was removed. The other type was called a latching relay - when operated, it would 'latch' and stay operated, even when voltage was removed.

Does the i4wd clutch latch or does it need constant current?

 

[Hondasxs]

Does the i4wd clutch latch or does it need constant current?

Its not latching.

 

[Hondasxs]

But does it do that with the brakes or inside off front diff ?.I wonder if it has a blown diode somewhere keeping the coil on.

With the brakes.
its like a limited slip differential. It limits the slip to one wheel by applying the brakes, which is supposed to make the other wheel pull.

 

[john790]

So it has the same diff as the pioneer with out the diff lock.

 

[DRZRon1]

I don't know if the clutch is 'latching' - stays on once energized or if it needs continuous power to stay engaged. If it needs power to stay engaged, wouldn't that run the battery down, in this case? --> because it's always on?

Details - My early career was in electro-mechanical. We had 2 types of relays, those that would only be operated if they had voltage applied and they'd release when voltage was removed. The other type was called a latching relay - when operated, it would 'latch' and stay operated, even when voltage was removed.

Does the i4wd clutch latch or does it need constant current?

needs voltage all the time - not a latch -( give it power and then another coil for unlatch)

 

[john790]

So looking at the book maybe nothings wrong.A pioneer will only spin one wheel in 4 wheel drive i think it would be the left.Its hooked to the ring gear.It has no spider gears.So when in 4 lock it slides a sleeve and hooks into the ring gear.He should be able to spin both tires in 2 wheel drive.

 

[CID]

My i4wd Talon R is up on jackstands - I can spin either front tire, either direction and the other side follows it, turning in the same direction, but through lite friction, if I block one tire, the other will still spin (still feeling that friction), key on or off and in Park or High (still front tires). Neither rear will turn in Park or High but either front will still turn by hand, engine off.

I guess I'm surprised that the fronts didn't lock up when I turned the key on in i4wd but that has to be a function of the sprag clutch setup in the front diff - only engaged under power/load.

 

[906UP]

There is no locking of the Talon front diff at all, period, end of story. It is basically a very light version of a limited slip, the "locking" as your referring to is actually the i4wd applying the front brakes to limit the tire that's spinning. It's a simple traction control system

 

[mannysgalaxy]

Raceco cromoly hubs and Hess front knuckles are not compatible, they will completely bind over 80lbs torq.

Raceco hubs have approx 1/16 higher center face over stock (around the threaded axle receiving cylinder) that when you pass 80lbs of torque will bind on the Hess knuckle face. Both work with stock components but you need to mill raceco hub down for it not to bind at torq and pop a 103 code if you are going to use it with a Hess knuckle.

If your front wheels ever bind do not chase the 103 code - its a symptom not the cause. Per the thread binding front wheels are mechanical.

My bust, thank you to everyone for details on the clutch.

Long chain of events that came together causing me to chase the 103, all codes are clear and it's ready to rip.

Thank you to Glenn Hess for always being willing and ready to talk through gremlins.

20 hrs of fun little nightmare chasing - but pleasure sharing and troubleshooting with you all.

If any of you ever wanna hit the deserts between Vegas and Barstow pm me - those are my stomping grounds.

🤟🤟🤟🤟🤟🤟🤟

 

[906UP]

Raceco cromoly hubs and Hess front knuckles are not compatible, they will completely bind over 80lbs torq.

Raceco hubs have approx 1/16 higher center face over stock (around the threaded axle receiving cylinder) that when you pass 80lbs of torque will bind on the Hess knuckle face. Both work with stock components but you need to mill raceco hub down for it not to bind at torq and pop a 103 code if you are going to use it with a Hess knuckle.

If your front wheels ever bind do not chase the 103 code - its a symptom not the cause. Per the thread binding front wheels are mechanical.

My bust, thank you to everyone for details on the clutch.

Long chain of events that came together causing me to chase the 103, all codes are clear and it's ready to rip.

Thank you to Glenn Hess for always being willing and ready to talk through gremlins.

20 hrs of fun little nightmare chasing - but pleasure sharing and troubleshooting with you all.

If any of you ever wanna hit the deserts between Vegas and Barstow pm me - those are my stomping grounds.

🤟🤟🤟🤟🤟🤟🤟

Glad you found the issue and a big thanks for the follow up post

 

[NewHere2]

Glad the problem has been solved. Thanks for the follow up solution. This has been interesting to follow.