P1000 P1000 Sub-Trans Part Number Updates/Inquiry

[theicor]

Hello All,

I'm in the process of researching my parts list needed for my second sub-trans rebuild where the customer's reverse has failed. I performed one of these repairs on a 2018 model last fall replacing the 27T reverse drive gear and the low/reverse shifter. At the time, I did not perform the Talon reverse gear change due to parts availability issues and I was informed that there may be some new/supercede part numbers in the pipe for the 2022 model year to possibly address perceived reliability issues with the sub-trans.

I have learned of the update/supercede for the shift fork shaft and the gearshift drum "star" that has been discussed in other threads regarding the sub-trans and updates and was planning to incorporate these pieces into my repair.

24210-HL4-010
24331-HL4-010

I started researching the 2022 model year P1000 sub-trans components and I noticed that there are a number of hard parts that have been assigned new numbers. This includes shafts, shifters, and final drive gears, low, reverse and high among others. It should also be noted that the gearing for reverse was changed to match that of the Talon gearset for the 2022 model year. (25T/22T)

So this gets me thinking, are these components interchangeable with the 2018 sub-trans such that I can accomplish the repair with updated part numbers and also achieve the desired gear reduction with the following parts for the reverse idler shaft, reverse drive gear and low reverse shifter?

23711-HL4-AJ0
23691-HL4-AJ0
23751-HL4-AJ0

Notice the same part numbers with the 2018 vintage parts with the exception of the AJ0 now in the part number sequence. As part of doing a sanity check on this I decided to check if the case used in the 2022 was the same as previous model years in an effort to gain some confidence if the new parts will work in the older sub-trans.

The 2022 Pioneer is now using the Talon case. This is throwing a wrench in my thought process, but knowing the interchangeability of the previous years Talon parts with the Pioneer, I'm still thinking the parts interchangeability would remain the same in these instances.

Does anyone on this forum have an intimate knowledge of these assemblies such that you could provide guidance that the 2022 Pioneer parts identified above would be compatible as a repair/upgrade for the 2018 unit I am working on?

Thank you in advance!

 

[bumperm]

This is way below my paygrade, but nonetheless most interesting! 🤔

 

[P1K5Dave]

So the actual case has changed to match the Talon? I wasn't aware they were different in the first place.

It kind of looks like they took the 3-4 years of information they collected from the p1000 and made some changes when they adopted the drivetrain to the new Talon. Now, in 2022 they've brought many of those changes over to the Pioneer in the interest of standardizing and streamlining manufacturing.

 

[P1K5Dave]

Also, I'm going to tag @HondaTech on this for you, as he probably has more insight on this than anyone else.

 

[HondaTech]

I'll have to take a look myself, wasn't aware the cases were any different between Pioneer and Talon.

As far as the updated star and shaft are concerned they'll fit any year Pioneer or Talon.

 

[GPR1500SC]

The Talon case has a dowel pin where the Pioneer case doesn't so they never where the same part number.
The out put shaft is different from the Pioneer to the Talon.
Honda will not sell me gear number 23671- HL4 -AJO so I can do the lower high gear even though my dealer can see them in inventory?

 

[theicor]

Okay, that is a good clarification on the case difference and does help explain the difference there.

I also noticed that while I was looking that they did simplify the design of the 2022 reverse idler shaft to eliminate some extra parts, see below the new design...

This is the new design...

This is the old design...

It's looking like they eliminated the shaft (6) and the extra needle bearings (25) and combined into a one-piece idler gear/shaft. The end bearings and thrust washers are the same Honda part numbers, so it seems conceivable that the new design idler/shaft design would fit into existing cases.

I'm thinking P1K5Dave is on to something with regards to a possible effort by Honda to simplify the sub-transmission assemblies between the talon and the Pioneer in an attempt to streamline/simplify things.

I think I'm closer to being more comfortable with these parts interactions that I think I'm going to order 2022 parts for my 2018 rebuild.

Can anyone think of anything I might be missing?

Thanks again!

 

[Remington]

@snuffnwhisky

 

[toddvdh]

I’m not sure on if they go into a pioneer…. But I had the sub transmission rebuild on my Talon after reverse went out last winter. They used the 2022 parts and it shifts securely into every gear now. Even low is easy to slide into.

 

[theicor]

That sounds like another vote of confidence for the interchangeability. I'll get the parts coming and keep you posted on the status. I'm not going to mess with the high and low gears as I do see that they went to a two-piece design on those now.

This is the new design...

This is the old design...

Not sure of the performance/reliability improvements that would offer as we have generally not been having problems with the high and low gears and shifting and they're another ~$300 in parts to replace/update. I'm thinking that as long as the stackup on the shaft is the same and the dogs on the new low/reverse shifter match the old low gear we should be fine. Fingers crossed...

Any other thoughts as I proceed with this?

Thanks for all of the input! Hopefully this proves helpful for others down the road!

 

[Adam490]

@snuffnwhisky

Somehow those boys have never been into a subtrans... Probably all that sissy gravel road riding they do. That or they break much bigger things long before the subtrans has a chance to explode 😂 I was the first of our group to tear into one when my Low went out at Stony. @Ragnar406 had his Low gear go out but I'm pretty sure his was replaced under warranty.

 

[Ragnar406]

Somehow those boys have never been into a subtrans... Probably all that sissy gravel road riding they do. That or they break much bigger things long before the subtrans has a chance to explode 😂 I was the first of our group to tear into one when my Low went out at Stony. @Ragnar406 had his Low gear go out but I'm pretty sure his was replaced under warranty.

Yea, when Low went on mine I took to the dealer and they repaired it.

 

[theicor]

I finally did get this repair completed this week and everything back together. All is well, the 2022 parts do interchange into the older units and all appears to work well. After seeing the components in hand I can agree that the changes made to the shift fork shaft and the gearshift drum "star" should aid in improving the reliability of the shift selections. Gear shifts are crisp and positive. I also like the updated reverse idler shaft being one piece, it a simpler more elegant design and is an exact dimensional replacement for the previous design. The lower reverse gearset is a nice improvement as well and can see why many have been doing that modification over the years. I am trying to think of anything else more to add, but nothing comes to mind offhand, if anyone has any questions let me know, I'd be happy to help.
The main takeaway here is that like others have said, if you're in the sub-trans make sure to replace the superseded parts in the shift shaft and the gearshift drum star and I would also recommend if your reverse has failed the 2022 part replacements of the idler shaft, reverse gear and reverse shifter as well, as they will fit and give the desired gear lower gear ratio and hopefully increased reliability over the previous design.

Thanks and happy riding!

 

[russknight]

I finally did get this repair completed this week and everything back together. All is well, the 2022 parts do interchange into the older units and all appears to work well. After seeing the components in hand I can agree that the changes made to the shift fork shaft and the gearshift drum "star" should aid in improving the reliability of the shift selections. Gear shifts are crisp and positive. I also like the updated reverse idler shaft being one piece, it a simpler more elegant design and is an exact dimensional replacement for the previous design. The lower reverse gearset is a nice improvement as well and can see why many have been doing that modification over the years. I am trying to think of anything else more to add, but nothing comes to mind offhand, if anyone has any questions let me know, I'd be happy to help.
The main takeaway here is that like others have said, if you're in the sub-trans make sure to replace the superseded parts in the shift shaft and the gearshift drum star and I would also recommend if your reverse has failed the 2022 part replacements of the idler shaft, reverse gear and reverse shifter as well, as they will fit and give the desired gear lower gear ratio and hopefully increased reliability over the previous design.

Thanks and happy riding!

Great information, thanks! Thinking about doing the mods. Is it easiest to pull the engine to do this, or leave it in the frame?

 

[P1K5Dave]

Thanks for the follow-up @theicor - I'm going to link to your info in my sub transmission service thread for the next guys that do this.

 

[Blaker3115]

I finally did get this repair completed this week and everything back together. All is well, the 2022 parts do interchange into the older units and all appears to work well. After seeing the components in hand I can agree that the changes made to the shift fork shaft and the gearshift drum "star" should aid in improving the reliability of the shift selections. Gear shifts are crisp and positive. I also like the updated reverse idler shaft being one piece, it a simpler more elegant design and is an exact dimensional replacement for the previous design. The lower reverse gearset is a nice improvement as well and can see why many have been doing that modification over the years. I am trying to think of anything else more to add, but nothing comes to mind offhand, if anyone has any questions let me know, I'd be happy to help.
The main takeaway here is that like others have said, if you're in the sub-trans make sure to replace the superseded parts in the shift shaft and the gearshift drum star and I would also recommend if your reverse has failed the 2022 part replacements of the idler shaft, reverse gear and reverse shifter as well, as they will fit and give the desired gear lower gear ratio and hopefully increased reliability over the previous design.

Thanks and happy riding!

I’m fixing to dive into my 2016 pioneer sub trans to install the (Talon reverse upgrade) should I look into upgrading what you done as well while in there??

What were the part numbers needed for this minus the reverse gear?

Thanks so much!!


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[theicor]

I’m fixing to dive into my 2016 pioneer sub trans to install the (Talon reverse upgrade) should I look into upgrading what you done as well while in there??

What were the part numbers needed for this minus the reverse gear?

Thanks so much!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would recommend that all of the upgraded parts for the low/reverse gearset are replaced while you have everything open.

This is the parts list I had for my repair:

Gasket, Sub-Transmission Case (21206-HL4-003)
Gasket, Sub-Transmission Cover (21205-HL4-003)
Shifter, Low Reverse (23751-HL4-AJ0)
Gear, Reverse Drive (23691-HL4-AJ0)
Shaft, Reverse Idle (23711-HL4-AJ0)
Center, Gearshift Drum (24331-HL4-010)
Shaft, Shift Fork (24210-HL4-010)
Circlip, Outer 14mm (94510-14000)

You'll also need two quarts of oil to refill the sub-trans when you got it back together.

I think that covers it. Let me know if you have any questions or feedback, or if anyone thinks I am missing anything!

 

[Blaker3115]

I would recommend that all of the upgraded parts for the low/reverse gearset are replaced while you have everything open.

This is the parts list I had for my repair:

Gasket, Sub-Transmission Case (21206-HL4-003)
Gasket, Sub-Transmission Cover (21205-HL4-003)
Shifter, Low Reverse (23751-HL4-AJ0)
Gear, Reverse Drive (23691-HL4-AJ0)
Shaft, Reverse Idle (23711-HL4-AJ0)
Center, Gearshift Drum (24331-HL4-010)
Shaft, Shift Fork (24210-HL4-010)
Circlip, Outer 14mm (94510-14000)

You'll also need two quarts of oil to refill the sub-trans when you got it back together.

I think that covers it. Let me know if you have any questions or feedback, or if anyone thinks I am missing anything!

Thank you sir!! Now I'm curious if I dont need to do the Talon reverse gear and use these parts instead? Ill look up the parts that I have to see the breakdown of them in a diagram.

 

[theicor]

Thank you sir!! Now I'm curious if I dont need to do the Talon reverse gear and use these parts instead? Ill look up the parts that I have to see the breakdown of them in a diagram.

Use these parts instead, these new parts have the lowered talon reverse gear ratio as part of their updated design. See my earlier post at the beginning of this thread for a better explanation.

 

[Blaker3115]

Use these parts instead, these new parts have the lowered talon reverse gear ratio as part of their updated design. See my earlier post at the beginning of this thread for a better explanation.

Thanks so much! I’m glad I came across this post before I dove into make the upgrade.

The parts are ordered!!


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