Talon R Crossover Rings and Tender Spring Information

[CID]

Although not as 'firm' as the X (which has no crossover rings), the R won't be accused of being undersprung. Without buying new springs we can back off (raise) the crossover rings, keeping us on the softer tender springs longer. I've seen that we have up to 25 turns before the tender springs start to coil bind and we don't want that to happen, it kills springs. Although I bought the Talon to explore the desert, covid kept me home, my initial rides have been in the ROCKY Mountains and why a more compliant suspension became a higher priority than my previous experiences in the desert.

So, after initial break in and getting bounced around a bit, I decided to raise the crossover rings 10 front and 15 rear to start. After a successful 40 mile trial decided to go up another 5 turns at each end - so I'm at 15 turns front and 20 rear. I like it and it 'seems' to ride better.

How to know if we're coil binding? Put a zip tie around an individual spring coil on all 4 tenders. If you cut or dent that zip tie, you've gone too far.

Be sure to mark each crossover ring before you start so you can count turns. Mark them full width as it's hard to see between the spring coils - I used a gray felt tip for good contrast. Be sure to clean the shock body threads well, they're aluminum and galling will ruin your day - I used an air compressor after a good hosing.

I'm pretty sure I don't have 25 turns available in the rear, there's only about 1/8" left before the top crossover will bottom against the top of the shock (about 2 turns). There's about 1/4" remaining on the fronts. Note that these two dimensions have nothing to do with coil bind, I don't know when that might happen - it might not on my unit, I may run out of 'up' before coil bind.

If I've made a mistake or someone would like to add more information, please feel free to do so. I'm pretty new to SxSs and didn't see much info on the crossovers and tender springs, a quick look through the service manual showed nothing about either. 🤔 If you know where that is in the manual, please add it here.

An important note - doing this might increase bucking up in the rear, so proceed at your own risk. If you're a high speed rider this might not work as well for you as it does at my lower velocities.

ETA (edited to add) - RF front zip tied tender spring coil and gray felt tip marked crossover ring (the gray goes across both rings) - you can also see that there's about 1/4" left before the crossover ring tops out.

 

[hondabob]

Thanks for the info. I've been busy driving my 2019 Talon R so I haven't taken the time to adjust the tender springs on my 2020 Talon R. I did move the cross over rings up 5 turns in the front and 10 in the rear. That makes a noticeable improvement. We have mostly washboard sections and bony rock sections. The Talon X guys are not happy. The bandit and shock therapy springs make the X way better.

 

[Lil_Steve]

This may or may not help. It mostly makes my brain hurt but it's from the source...

https://www.ridefox.com/fox_tech_center/owners_manuals/605-00-109-revA.pdf

 

[CID]

Answering a question elsewhere, I said that removing the sway bar would soften the suspension 'some' because the swaybar ties the left and right suspension together, both spring rate and shock valving, in effect making both stiffer/firmer. Since the Talon will never be accused of being plush or supple, a light went on, an AHA moment. So last night I removed both SB links and tied the bar up to the frame.

I'm happy to report it did exactly what I'd hoped - my R rides much better and compared to stock, is 'nearing' plush. Perfect, no, of course not, but noticeably softer than with the swaybar connected.

Note that I don't drive like my hair's on fire, so the minimal lean resulting from disconnecting the SB won't affect my riding. If you DO ride like your hair is on fire (you KNOW who you are ), this probably isn't something you should consider. This experiment is FREE and I can always go back.

Also note that I have my rear crossover rings raised 20 turns (15 on the fronts) and on my Talon is as far as I can go. This means I use as much travel as possible while on the softer tender springs before crossing over to the stiffer mains. This may also mean that I'll get a worse rear bucking on harder hits, not sure.

You can see that there's still a bit of clearance left, before coil bind, on the left rear but not much. If that zip tie gets cut from pinching, 20 turns will prove to be too many. Both sides are pretty much the same.

How to compress to check? Park across a rut, opposite corners. For the curious, I completely forgot to look at the fronts. 🤫

 

[Creel]

Although not as 'firm' as the X (which has no crossover rings), the R won't be accused of being undersprung. Without buying new springs we can back off (raise) the crossover rings, keeping us on the softer tender springs longer. I've seen that we have up to 25 turns before the tender springs start to coil bind and we don't want that to happen, it kills springs. Although I bought the Talon to explore the desert, covid kept me home, my initial rides have been in the ROCKY Mountains and why a more compliant suspension became a higher priority than my previous experiences in the desert.

So, after initial break in and getting bounced around a bit, I decided to raise the crossover rings 10 front and 15 rear to start. After a successful 40 mile trial decided to go up another 5 turns at each end - so I'm at 15 turns front and 20 rear. I like it and it 'seems' to ride better.

How to know if we're coil binding? Put a zip tie around an individual spring coil on all 4 tenders. If you cut or dent that zip tie, you've gone too far.

Be sure to mark each crossover ring before you start so you can count turns. Mark them full width as it's hard to see between the spring coils - I used a gray felt tip for good contrast. Be sure to clean the shock body threads well, they're aluminum and galling will ruin your day - I used an air compressor after a good hosing.

I'm pretty sure I don't have 25 turns available in the rear, there's only about 1/8" left before the top crossover will bottom against the top of the shock (about 2 turns). There's about 1/4" remaining on the fronts. Note that these two dimensions have nothing to do with coil bind, I don't know when that might happen - it might not on my unit, I may run out of 'up' before coil bind.

If I've made a mistake or someone would like to add more information, please feel free to do so. I'm pretty new to SxSs and didn't see much info on the crossovers and tender springs, a quick look through the service manual showed nothing about either. 🤔 If you know where that is in the manual, please add it here.

An important note - doing this might increase bucking up in the rear, so proceed at your own risk. If you're a high speed rider this might not work as well for you as it does at my lower velocities.

ETA (edited to add) - RF front zip tied tender spring coil and gray felt tip marked crossover ring (the gray goes across both rings) - you can also see that there's about 1/4" left before the crossover ring tops out.
View attachment 204931

I would like to know if your adjustments worked out for you or did you have to make changes and what your final measurements were from the top of the crossover Thanks

 

[CID]

I would like to know if your adjustments worked out for you or did you have to make changes and what your final measurements were from the top of the crossover Thanks

The last time I rode all 4 zip ties were still intact - that was with the crossovers raised 15 turns in the front and 20 turns in the rear. I was able to confirm that 20 rear was max, as the first photo in post #4 shows with the Talon parked across the rut. For reasons unknown to me, I was never able to park in a way that would compress the fronts as much as the rear. 🤔

After my last ride, I raised the fronts another 2 turns, so 17 total which almost topped out the crossovers. The photo in post #1 shows 15 turns and you can see that there's 'about' 1/4" remaining before the crossover rings top out. Each turn is 'about' 1/16".

I'm not sure how one would measure from the top of the crossover rings to the top of the shock with the shock on the car (which is where I did all my adjustments). The problem at this time, my Talon got stolen and I'm waiting for its replacement to arrive so I can't get better photos showing how close to topped out I ended up. I never got to ride it with the fronts up 17 turns.

Assuming that all Talons are delivered with the crossover rings set the same, I can say that 15 F, 20 R isn't going to cause coil bind. I'd recommend that anyone start with those numbers since I had hundreds of miles (a thousand?) without cutting the zip ties. It's an experiment, the zip ties will determine when you've gone too far; I took the first big steps (following others' leads) and will save you a lot of time (5 turns at a time) guessing how far you can go.

Did it work as expected? Hell yes it did. My Talon rode considerably better after this experiment. A big caveat - you're screwing with the intended function of the shock and Honda's engineers' intent. The Talon is designed for the desert (for the most part) and higher speeds are designed into the shock's engineering. I think that raising the crossovers will increase rear end bucking on the bigger hits at higher speeds (already a known Talon issue). I only saw this mentioned once but I think it's important to know. I'm not a high speed rider so I'm willing to make this compromise - I'm retired and not physically up to a day's long pounding so softer is better.

Along those lines, disconnecting the sway bar had as much effect as backing off the crossovers but I sacrificed a bit of cornering stability, irrelevant since I'm not backing it into the turns and both Talons are fairly stiffly sprung (X & R).

 

[Creel]

T

The last time I rode all 4 zip ties were still intact - that was with the crossovers raised 15 turns in the front and 20 turns in the rear. I was able to confirm that 20 rear was max, as the first photo in post #4 shows with the Talon parked across the rut. For reasons unknown to me, I was never able to park in a way that would compress the fronts as much as the rear. 🤔

After my last ride, I raised the fronts another 2 turns, so 17 total which almost topped out the crossovers. The photo in post #1 shows 15 turns and you can see that there's 'about' 1/4" remaining before the crossover rings top out. Each turn is 'about' 1/16".

I'm not sure how one would measure from the top of the crossover rings to the top of the shock with the shock on the car (which is where I did all my adjustments). The problem at this time, my Talon got stolen and I'm waiting for its replacement to arrive so I can't get better photos showing how close to topped out I ended up. I never got to ride it with the fronts up 17 turns.

Assuming that all Talons are delivered with the crossover rings set the same, I can say that 15 F, 20 R isn't going to cause coil bind. I'd recommend that anyone start with those numbers since I had hundreds of miles (a thousand?) without cutting the zip ties. It's an experiment, the zip ties will determine when you've gone too far; I took the first big steps (following others' leads) and will save you a lot of time (5 turns at a time) guessing how far you can go.

Did it work as expected? Hell yes it did. My Talon rode considerably better after this experiment. A big caveat - you're screwing with the intended function of the shock and Honda's engineers' intent. The Talon is designed for the desert (for the most part) and higher speeds are designed into the shock's engineering. I think that raising the crossovers will increase rear end bucking on the bigger hits at higher speeds (already a known Talon issue). I only saw this mentioned once but I think it's important to know. I'm not a high speed rider so I'm willing to make this compromise - I'm retired and not physically up to a day's long pounding so softer is better.

Along those lines, disconnecting the sway bar had as much effect as backing off the crossovers but I sacrificed a bit of cornering stability, irrelevant since I'm not backing it into the turns and both Talons are fairly stiffly sprung (X & R).

 

[Creel]

Thanks my problem is that I had adjusted my shocks last year and don’t remember how much I moved them so I guess I’ll just playing with it

 

[CID]

Thanks my problem is that I had adjusted my shocks last year and don’t remember how much I moved them so I guess I’ll just playing with it

Man, I've lost count of the number of times I've done exactly that - made changes and then forgot the details when I needed them.

All I can offer is the first photo shows a front shock and you can see that the crossover ring is about 1/4" from topping out (to the right of the gray felt tip marking) - it's 15 turns up.

It was pretty easy to park across a rut to compress the rear tender and see how far from coil bind I was (the photos in post 4 shows this Idea). You should be able to duplicate that without having to run until you pinch or cut the zip ties. I'll leave the zip ties in place to let me know if things change. As tight as the spring looks in post 4, photo 1, the zip tie wasn't dented, so there hadn't been any contact or pinching.

 

[PaulF]

Thanks my problem is that I had adjusted my shocks last year and don’t remember how much I moved them so I guess I’ll just playing with it

I have the design prints directly from Fox for the Talon. Here are the factory measurements...

Front...

Rear...

 

[CID]

Thanks my problem is that I had adjusted my shocks last year and don’t remember how much I moved them so I guess I’ll just playing with it

I just noticed in the first post that I had noted the rear crossovers were about 1/8" from topping out, I'd forgotten that. The fronts were ~1/4". You could use 1/4" at both ends as a starting point, watching the zip ties closely.

@PaulF - thanks for adding the design prints. 👍

 

[CID]

Can someone measure the standing length of the rear crossovers on a stock Talon R for me? I've added two spares and a bed extender and forgot to premeasure mine. I had the rear crossovers backed off 20 turns on my old Talon but can't do that having added about 200 pounds to the back of my new one. I need a new base line before I start backing the crossovers off again, 200 pounds matter.

 

[PaulF]

Can someone measure the standing length of the rear crossovers on a stock Talon R for me? I've added two spares and a bed extender and forgot to premeasure mine. I had the crossovers backed off 20 turns on my old Talon but can't do that having added about 200 pounds to the back of my new one. I need a new base line before I start backing the crossovers off again, 200 pounds matter.

View attachment 236280

I would not rely on another machine's measurements. Mine were not correct or even (left to right) from the factory and was the reason I got the factory measurements straight from Fox. The stock measurements for the R are in post #10, you should start there.

Once you get it back to stock, you should only use that as a starting point and adjust your ride height from there. Stock ground clearance for the R is 13". You appear to have bigger tires so add 1/2 inch ground clearance for each addition inch of tire. Remember that if you move the preload to adjust ride height, you should move the crossover the same amount in the same direction. Roll the machine at least 25 feet forward and back to settle the suspension between adjustments.

Then adjust your crossovers after you get your height correct for the type of riding you do (raise the ring for softer ride, lower the ring for more aggressive riding). If you raise the crossovers rings, make sure the upper springs don't bind.

 

[CID]

I would not rely on another machine's measurements. Mine were not correct or even (left to right) from the factory and was the reason I got the factory measurements straight from Fox. The stock measurements for the R are in post #10, you should start there.

Once you get it back to stock, you should only use that as a starting point and adjust your ride height from there. Stock ground clearance for the R is 13". You appear to have bigger tires so add 1/2 inch ground clearance for each addition inch of tire. Remember that if you move the preload to adjust ride height, you should move the crossover the same amount in the same direction. Roll the machine at least 25 feet forward and back to settle the suspension between adjustments.

Then adjust your crossovers after you get your height correct for the type of riding you do (raise the ring for softer ride, lower the ring for more aggressive riding). If you raise the crossovers rings, make sure the upper springs don't bind.

Thanks, Paul, that's the push in the right direction I needed. My concern was that the factory numbers are for a shock lying on the bench, not carrying the vehicle's weight. I'll use zip ties to let me know if I'm coil binding the upper springs. I was quick to raise the crossover rings to the max available because I'm a fairly conservative driver but the extra 200 pounds at the back has me questioning that approach.

I am running 30" Chicane RX tires. Allowing for the 1/2" skid and 1" additonal tire radius, I'm 1-3/4" low if I'm figuring this right. (for the OCD: I opened the garage door for 15 seconds and filled it with leaves )

 

[PaulF]

Thanks, Paul, that's the push in the right direction I needed. My concern was that the factory numbers are for a shock lying on the bench, not carrying the vehicle's weight. I'll use zip ties to let me know if I'm coil binding the upper springs. I was quick to raise the crossover rings to the max available because I'm a fairly conservative driver but the extra 200 pounds at the back has me questioning that approach.

I am running 30" Chicane RX tires.

The factory measurements are static and not dependent on if the shock is installed or not. They are from the bottom of the top of the shock casing to the preload lock ring and and from the top of the spring to the top of the upper crossover lock ring so that will not change regardless if the shock is compressed or not.

With 30" tires, you should shoot for 14" ground clearance. It is advised that the rear never be higher than the front but can be a little lower if needed/desired. Make sure your tires are at 15psi when you measure.

 

[PaulF]

FYI, you measure point may not be a good place. The rear bar is higher than the bottom of the frame so the skit "curves" up and gives you a false measurement. Use the top of the skid on the left, just before it turns the corner...

 

[sspeederr]

I have the design prints directly from Fox for the Talon. Here are the factory measurements...

Front...
View attachment 224644

Rear...
View attachment 224645

I assume these measurements are for the r model correct

 

[PaulF]

I assume these measurements are for the r model correct

Yes.