P1000 The Good, the Bad and the Meh

[Plumber101010]

That's not really a good parallel because the 4 x 4 engagement on a truck is not a cable it's a direct connect shaft.

All cables require fine-tuning and just like a bicycle or motorcycle the cable on the clutch and the brakes have to be tuned and tightened because the cable stretches and these are the exact same and just takes your fingers to adjust.

With that said, that something that maybe the dealer should've done pre delivery

But you can't compare every deficiency on the Honda to a more complicated issue like an LED TV.

You sound like me when I first bought it and listed all my complaints... Not the best way to win a popularity contest here

I didn't fare too well there LMAO!

Overall, speaking generally now and not anything specifically. I do absolutely agree with you that when you sell something for $20,000 it's on the same level as a new car or new truck and NO, you shouldn't have to do anything to an automobile when you drive it off a lot!

Yes I STILL have lots of complaints. I still get irritated that I have to take my arm and twist it in an uncomfortable position as well as my body just to open up the door... Doorhandles should always be FORWARD of the body and easily accessible.

I get irritated they made me pay extra for MIRRORS...

But, I will say, those are all the initial things that I went through just like you. Now? I just hop in it with 6 foot of mud caked everywhere and I take off and give it very little thought anymore as I'm just too overwhelmed with how this thing will climb Mt. Everest with, if you're CP, seven people and a dog on board.

In other words, I got over all that stuff and I'm just enjoying it for what it is, the most powerful UTV you can get your hands on!

That doesn't mean that I'm still not let down like you by lots of little things and that still doesn't mean that when trade-in time comes I might not consider another brand.

But all I'm saying is give it a few months and you will find all the stuff that really irks you will not be that big of a deal when you fully come to appreciate the raw magnificent power of this beast! With a bed that won't tilt....

 

[Admin]

 

[SuperYeti]

As you've already been told on your trailering thread, just drive the thing, you're way over thinking this stuff IMO. Is my 700 perfect, nope, it makes some gear noise and stuff that at first i was like what the F*** about. Asked the dealer, did a bit of searching here, it's normal because of how stout they built it. Since then I just drive it. If it's so bad for you, go grab a popo, and see how many issues you have. That's what warranty is there for.

 

[500]

That's not really a good parallel because the 4 x 4 engagement on a truck is not a cable it's a direct connect shaft.

All cables require fine-tuning and just like a bicycle or motorcycle the cable on the clutch and the brakes have to be tuned and tightened because the cable stretches and these are the exact same and just takes your fingers to adjust.

With that said, that something that maybe the dealer should've done pre delivery

But you can't compare every deficiency on the Honda to a more complicated issue like an LED TV.

You sound like me when I first bought it and listed all my complaints... Not the best way to win a popularity contest here

I didn't fare too well there LMAO!

Overall, speaking generally now and not anything specifically. I do absolutely agree with you that when you sell something for $20,000 it's on the same level as a new car or new truck and NO, you shouldn't have to do anything to an automobile when you drive it off a lot!

Yes I STILL have lots of complaints. I still get irritated that I have to take my arm and twist it in an uncomfortable position as well as my body just to open up the door... Doorhandles should always be FORWARD of the body and easily accessible.

I get irritated they made me pay extra for MIRRORS...

But, I will say, those are all the initial things that I went through just like you. Now? I just hop in it with 6 foot of mud caked everywhere and I take off and give it very little thought anymore as I'm just too overwhelmed with how this thing will climb Mt. Everest with, if you're CP, seven people and a dog on board.

In other words, I got over all that stuff and I'm just enjoying it for what it is, the most powerful UTV you can get your hands on!

That doesn't mean that I'm still not let down like you by lots of little things and that still doesn't mean that when trade-in time comes I might not consider another brand.

But all I'm saying is give it a few months and you will find all the stuff that really irks you will not be that big of a deal when you fully come to appreciate the raw magnificent power of this beast! With a bed that won't tilt....

It's actually a direct comparison.
Whether a cable or an actuator, gears / collars have to be lined up to engage. Does not matter if its strait cable or electronic doing the moving of the components, they are the same inside the diff and this requires rotational movement in most cases to engage. Like I said, with Honda or the wolverine I just sold - there is a delay in most cases in locking the front diff due to this.
You need to follow that in my Z71, there is not a locking front diff. I turn a knob which electronically engages the transfer case to go from Hi to Low. I do not turn a shaft with my hands to get the truck to engage, I turn a knob. This example was used to illustrate that even in newer vehicles there is sometimes a delay when waiting on mechanical things to line up properly. If you are trying to correlate a transfer case in my truck to a front diff in a side by side then you are correct, you wouldn't be using a good example.

 

[Plumber101010]

It's actually a direct comparison.
Whether a cable or an actuator, gears / collars have to be lined up to engage. Does not matter if its strait cable or electronic doing the moving of the components, they are the same inside the diff and this requires rotational movement in most cases to engage. Like I said, with Honda or the wolverine I just sold - there is a delay in most cases in locking the front diff due to this.
You need to follow that in my Z71, there is not a locking front diff. I turn a knob which electronically engages the transfer case to go from Hi to Low. I do not turn a shaft with my hands to get the truck to engage, I turn a knob. This example was used to illustrate that even in newer vehicles there is sometimes a delay when waiting on mechanical things to line up properly. If you are trying to correlate a transfer case in my truck to a front diff in a side by side then you are correct, you wouldn't be using a good example.

It's actually not. There are no cables to put my truck in 4 x 4 and so if it didn't work out of the gate it would imply that there is a much more serious issue going on. I can't just adjust a cable and it's all fixed up

The Honda is controlled by cables and there's no comparison between a cable that can stretch and a direct connection going straight into the transfer case.

The end result may be the exact same, but the way to obtain that result is a night and day difference.

 

[Plumber101010]

Of course I guess I should add, I have a floor mounted shifter, I am old-fashioned and it's not the pushbutton so maybe in the pushbutton case it would apply

 

[500]

It's actually not. There are no cables to put my truck in 4 x 4 and so if it didn't work out of the gate it would imply that there is a much more serious issue going on. I can't just adjust a cable and it's all fixed up

The Honda is controlled by cables and there's no comparison between a cable that can stretch and a direct connection going straight into the transfer case.

The end result may be the exact same, but the way to obtain that result is a night and day difference.

It actually is.
Regardless of whether your cable is perfectly adjusted or not, whether you have an actuator or an air line like in an ARB, rotation of the driveline is required in most cases to line things up inside the diff. A loose cable can complicate the situation which I have addressed in another thread on how to adjust, but it does not discount the fact that with these locking diffs the rotation is needed to line things up after mechanical force is applied with a cable, actuator, air pressure, etc. You can encourage it with a cable, an actuator, or even a pressurized air line, but until the gears/collars inside the diff are aligned, it's not locking in. Hopefully you can follow this detailed illustration. If not, I can provide a link to how a locking differential works.

 

[Plumber101010]

It actually is.
Regardless of whether your cable is perfectly adjusted or not, whether you have an actuator or an air line like in an ARB, rotation of the driveline is required in most cases to line things up inside the diff. A loose cable can complicate the situation which I have addressed in another thread on how to adjust, but it does not discount the fact that with these locking diffs the rotation is needed to line things up after mechanical force is applied with a cable, actuator, air pressure, etc. You can encourage it with a cable, an actuator, or even a pressurized air line, but until the gears/collars inside the diff are aligned, it's not locking in. Hopefully you can follow this detailed illustration. If not, I can provide a link to how a locking differential works.

Actually I think I just figured out you thought I was talking about you? That's what I get as every time I don't post the quote this happens. LOL

I wasnt referring to your post about the comparison, i was referring to Crow hunters post which is why there's contusion.

Your example was dead on, but I wasn't referring to your example

 

[walexa07]

That was actually something I was going to post a question about.

I have been religiously following the rule that you must stop before changing modes. I would do so, and wait, sometimes several minutes and nothing would happen. So I would go on and then several minutes later, after I had started moving, the indicator would change. That got me to wondering, is the indicator the chicken or the egg? Since it can cause damage to change "on the fly" is the indicator changing an eighth of a mile down a trail while under load just as likely to damage it.

I would be highly pissed if that caused damage and left me stranded and then I began to wonder if something like that happened, would it be covered under warranty or would it be considered abuse.

I found it odd that it seemed to be affected by heat. I noticed it happening on the 2nd run and started paying more attention and it had bad "lag" towards the end of that run. One the 3rd run, it had little lag at the start, but it switched fine but by the end of that run, the indicator never left Turf.

I don't follow the rule of stopping before changing modes and have had no issues at all. I believe many times the drive mode selected engages quickly but the sensor is slow to recognize. Just my experiences.

Waylan

 

[Crow_Hunter]

Well because I like to overthink things and I do root cause analysis for a living I went out and setup some experiments.

1. The indicator coming on is when the operation is complete. If the indicator doesn't show the mode you put it in, it isn't in that mode.

2. The speed of mode engagement was directly related to the state of the machine directly prior to attempting engagement. Depending on which mode you were going from to, it could be nearly instantaneous to requiring a bunch of vehicle contortions to get it to engage.

3. Heat had no effect. I did the experiment cold and after getting the machine so hot that I felt it in the shifter. (Temp gage never went over 2 bars though)

4. Sometimes it couldn't decide to stay in Turf mode. It would sometimes flicker on/off for a little while after it changed modes.

5. 4WD was always near instantaneous, it was the 4WD Diff Lock and the the Turf/2WD that seemed to be the most variable.

My only concern is that who is at fault if there is a gear mesh failure? Me or Honda?

There really needs to be an edit of the language in the manual to clarify what needs to be done to get this stuff to engage and how to protect the drivetrain other than just saying, don't shift while moving but move to get it to shift....

 

[DRAGFOOT]

I think you really need to check your cable adjustments. Stretching cables is part of a breakin process if you ask me. I was having the same issues, then I adjusted the cables properly and it's much better.

 

[CumminsPusher]

I think Honda really "cheaped" out with that cable operated set-up. For what they get out of those things I would think they could've afforded to use an electric shifting turf/2/4 /diff lock. I sure liked the set-up our old Ranger had, and seemed to work reliably. It works great on the Foreman and Rubicon.

Ya but regardless of what people think the electric system isn't in 4wd unless the rear tires slip. When your hauling ass down a dirt road in 4wd you're actually in 2wd unless the tires slip which isn't as stable. I personally prefer "knowing " I'm in lock. I know it's not recommend but I do shift between 2wd lock and 4wd unlock without stopping I treat it the same as the older 4wds where as long as you let off the gas just a bit and aren't spinning just click it in/out. As long as there is no load on the system I can not see any harm because the system is already spinning but that's me.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

I will tell you that you would have had the exact same issue with the Wolverine. I do expect it to take a minute as that is how it is with true mechanical locking front diffs. These are not Hilliard differentials as in Polaris and Can am. These are far superior in strength and have true gear to gear locking mechanisms. The Polaris and Can Am units will never have to await the mechanism to lock up, as they have a Hilliard which uses a magnet to throw out a mechanism to engage the front end when it senses the rear is outrunning it. Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki use true 4WD, not AWD, and it takes a minute sometimes to engage front diff lock just as my 2011 Z71 crew cab does shifting into low 4WD. At the farm the other day, I twisted the button into 4-low and it sat there and flashed - not immediately engaging - until I put it into reverse and backed up a few yards - then it clunked into low. I have the habit of always backing up a few yards in any vehicle I have ever owned to make certain in my own mind everything is disengaged when coming back out of 4wd. A mechanical mechanism has to engage. My Wolverine would sometimes engage in lock in 10 seconds, other times I'd have to drive and turn the wheels left to right for 15 yards, and sometimes back up until the light quit blinking. Same thing coming out of lock. It is very well documented over on the Wolverine forum as many owners had never dealt with a true locking diff - esp those coming from a Hilliard style. The light flashes and flashes and flashes then finally you can wiggle just right and it will engage. It will get better as things loosen up, but it will never always be immediate - sometimes it will seem that way sometimes it won't - regardless of who makes it. Things have to mesh perfectly for the gears to line up which sometimes requires slow speed movement. Yamaha is the exact same way. I'd rather adjust a cable than lose 4WD due to a fuse blowing with an electronic actuator style design.

Actually the Can Am has a viscous fluid coupling lock on their front differential. No actual mechanical linkage between them. IIRC the Hilliard is actually a John Deere design for the Gators that Polaris licenses and they are the only two that use it.

I read the same thing about the Wolverine.

However, I wish that Honda did something similar to Yamaha. Change it so that when you move the lever, it starts flashing until it is fully engaged. That way you will know to be very gentle and easy on it until you get a solid lock up and say that in the manual.

On the my Pioneer, it was basically instantaneous when I bought it through the first 20-30 miles, so I wasn't in the habit of checking. It wasn't until I left a field road and I was halfway down the highway at 30 MPH that I glanced down and noticed that it still said 2WD and then right as I looked up to slow down going into a curve it clicked into Turf mode in my peripheral vision.

After that, I started watching it very closely and I couldn't always get it to switch out.

Now I am aggravated that #1, I paid nearly $20k for a machine that isn't working right with less than 75 very, very careful and easy miles on it, #2 I may have damaged something because I wasn't watching for it to stop working because I thought I was paying a premium for high quality. Which brings me back to the fact that I just paid $20k for something that not only isn't working right, somehow I am wrong for not just fixing it using things that anonymous people on the internet are posting while there is nothing noted in the manual that came with the machine other than don't do what I didn't mean to do but if it starts doing that, take it to the dealer which makes me even more aggravated.

I have only ever owned 4WD vehicles that have manual shifters which clunk into action other than my Rincon which pretty much switched instantly, exactly like the Pioneer 1000 started out doing and now I am an idiot for not just fixing it and going on.

 

[CumminsPusher]

Ours goes in instantly it just takes a second for the dash to show but you can tell instantly. I guess it would be nice to show quickly but we've never (yet) had to question it. It's locked or unlocked. I'm beginning to think if you drive these like you hate them they have less problems

 

[Crow_Hunter]

Ours goes in instantly it just takes a second for the dash to show but you can tell instantly. I guess it would be nice to show quickly but we've never (yet) had to question it. It's locked or unlocked. I'm beginning to think if you drive these like you hate them they have less problems

Are you sure?

I never heard/felt the engagement without also seeing the indicator change.

I drive mine very, very carefully paying attention to everything now.

Previously, I was just gentle driving but did not watch my indicator while driving. Now I have one eye on what is in front of me and another on the indicator.

 

[CumminsPusher]

Positive crow hunter. We've been stuck before I shift and immediately out we came. Maybe you should wait for the light not sure of recommendations but we shift and go. It's cable.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Are you sure?

I never heard/felt the engagement without also seeing the indicator change.

I drive mine very, very carefully paying attention to everything now.

Previously, I was just gentle driving but did not watch my indicator while driving. Now I have one eye on what is in front of me and another on the indicator.

Yes, I have tested mine several times as I was concerned as well. It shifts into 4wd and the diff locks up immediately, but the display is slow to show it.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

Yes, I have tested mine several times as I was concerned as well. It shifts into 4wd and the diff locks up immediately, but the display is slow to show it.

That is odd.

Mine shifts nearly instantly into 4WD, you only have to let off the brake and you can hear/feel it engage but it take sometimes take several turns of the wheel or several feet before it will Diff lock. I can't hear it lock but I can feel it in the steering it gets noticeably "heavier" in the steering.

I hear a clunk when it drops between Lock rear and Turf as well and that always corresponds to the indicator switching.

But I also drive like a Grandpa and I am paying very close attention, NOW anyway.

 

[joeymt33]

I also had the issue of cables not being adjusted properly. I blame my dealership, not Honda. I actually prefer the cable operated shifters as they are more reliable once they are BROKEN IN and ADJUSTED PROPERLY. I adjusted my cables once around 100 miles maybe, they have been perfect since then. I keep an eye on the trail ahead and engage the preferred mode prior to needing it and it's always worked great. Sometimes it engages immediately and some times it take 10 feet.

I also shift on the fly even though it's not recommended. As CP said, you MUST be sure that all wheels are spinning the same speed. I've logged approx 1500 miles on two different pioneers with out one issue. However, I can almost guarantee that if you were spinning the back tires and put it in 4x4 at the same time.....bad things would happen.

Crow_Hunter, hang in there. I hope you will get over the little things and start enjoying your new Honda. As always, we are hear to assist with any help you need.

Joe

 

[joeymt33]

That is odd.

Mine shifts nearly instantly into 4WD, you only have to let off the brake and you can hear/feel it engage but it take sometimes take several turns of the wheel or several feet before it will Diff lock. I can't hear it lock but I can feel it in the steering it gets noticeably "heavier" in the steering.

I hear a clunk when it drops between Lock rear and Turf as well and that always corresponds to the indicator switching.

But I also drive like a Grandpa and I am paying very close attention, NOW anyway.

Like @500 said, the diff lockers need a differentiation of left and right shafts to allow the locking mechanism to couple. So, your description is accurate. The same is true for my 2014 FX4 f150 rear locker. It's electronically controlled but still needs the shafts to move a little to lock and unlock.

 

[DRAGFOOT]

If it worked fine when you got it and now it's not, after 75 miles the cables probably stretched. Especially if you were shifting it a fair amount. Which it sounds like you were.