P1000 The Good, the Bad and the Meh

[Plumber101010]

Well because I like to overthink things and I do root cause analysis for a living I went out and setup some experiments.

1. The indicator coming on is when the operation is complete. If the indicator doesn't show the mode you put it in, it isn't in that mode.

2. The speed of mode engagement was directly related to the state of the machine directly prior to attempting engagement. Depending on which mode you were going from to, it could be nearly instantaneous to requiring a bunch of vehicle contortions to get it to engage.

3. Heat had no effect. I did the experiment cold and after getting the machine so hot that I felt it in the shifter. (Temp gage never went over 2 bars though)

4. Sometimes it couldn't decide to stay in Turf mode. It would sometimes flicker on/off for a little while after it changed modes.

5. 4WD was always near instantaneous, it was the 4WD Diff Lock and the the Turf/2WD that seemed to be the most variable.

My only concern is that who is at fault if there is a gear mesh failure? Me or Honda?

There really needs to be an edit of the language in the manual to clarify what needs to be done to get this stuff to engage and how to protect the drivetrain other than just saying, don't shift while moving but move to get it to shift....

I don't know about anyone else, but I am extremely impressed that you were able to deduce in such a short amount of time by exact testing that the light only comes on once the procedure has been completed and everything is locked in. That really helped as youre trying to get this thing to work and figure it all out in your head. In fact that took absolutely all of the guesswork out of it!

GREAT JOB CROWHUNTER!!!

If you dont mind doing one more test, can you tell me if sex is taking place at the moment that light goes off in my head?
If so, would save me a few steps in between...

 

[Admin]

 

[Plumber101010]

Came across this thing dozens of times but now that I actually need it because I'm going to do it I can't find it anywhere. Can somebody post a link to that how to article about adjusting the cables for the shifting? I've done a search, I looked under the garage, can't find it anywhere!

 

[Stauvo]

Regarding the cab heat. I just received my @Bayouownbeer heat shield today and my 5 yr old helped me install it then went on a 5 mile round trip in humidity. I chose to pull rivets and slide entire shield under the black plastic panel. I re-installed my softop and full window. We notice a heat reduction in the front but it still got warm, but not hot as before. I still need to seal a little tighter around the seat belts as can feel a tiny bit of warm airflow there. It think it's slight bit more quiet too. It am very happy with it. I can see where a blower figured in there would benefit but I will see how it goes next weekend on a big family ride. I maybe should post this in performance section also.

Thanks Bayouownbeer it fit perfect.

 

[joeymt33]

Came across this thing dozens of times but now that I actually need it because I'm going to do it I can't find it anywhere. Can somebody post a link to that how to article about adjusting the cables for the shifting? I've done a search, I looked under the garage, can't find it anywhere!

P1000 - Park and 2wd lock adjustment

 

[Bayouownbeer]

Regarding the cab heat. I just received my @Bayouownbeer heat shield today and my 5 yr old helped me install it then went on a 5 mile round trip in humidity. I chose to pull rivets and slide entire shield under the black plastic panel. I re-installed my softop and full window. We notice a heat reduction in the front but it still got warm, but not hot as before. I still need to seal a little tighter around the seat belts as can feel a tiny bit of warm airflow there. It think it's slight bit more quiet too. It am very happy with it. I can see where a blower figured in there would benefit but I will see how it goes next weekend on a big family ride. I maybe should post this in performance section also.

Thanks Bayouownbeer it fit perfect.

Thanks for the review

 

[tig]

There are definitely some things about this machine that I like but there are quite a bit of things about it that I really don't like.

Considering that I have not yet really "tromped on it", I agree with others, I probably didn't damage anything. It is just frustrating me to no end that I am worried about damaging it rather than just enjoying it. But I am worried because there aren't really any well engineered driver feedback loops built into the system to alleviate those concerns.

If this was a $10k machine, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me other than an occasional question about how to do something better but at a price that is technically more than my daily driver is currently worth, I am significantly more critical and careful with it.

I probably jumped into the deep end on this one while only being able to dog paddle and should have stayed in the kiddie pool to start with.

What are you talking about "feedback loops"? Didn't you figure out that the light is the actual mode you're in?

All this hand wringing over a cable out of adjustment is crazy.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

What are you talking about "feedback loops"? Didn't you figure out that the light is the actual mode you're in?

All this hand wringing over a cable out of adjustment is crazy.

Thank you for your input.

It was very valuable.

 

[Plumber101010]

What are you talking about "feedback loops"? Didn't you figure out that the light is the actual mode you're in?

I don't think that's what he was trying to figure out. He was trying to figure out if the light comes on and is activated by the shifter being in its correct place or if the light is activated only once everything is locked into position regardless of the position of the shifter.

I've actually come across that question many times myself. Now we know it only comes on when everything is actually locked in place for that mode and ready to go regardless of the position of the shifter

 

[tig]

Thank you for your input.

It was very valuable.

Just like this thread.

 

[Crow_Hunter]

Just like this thread.

Glad you got something out of it and were able to continue to add additional value to the conversation.

 

[tig]

I don't think that's what he was trying to figure out. He was trying to figure out if the light comes on and is activated by the shifter being in its correct place or if the light is activated only once everything is locked into position regardless of the position of the shifter.

I've actually come across that question many times myself. Now we know it only comes on when everything is actually locked in place for that mode and ready to go regardless of the position of the shifter

That's exactly my point, he's complaining that there isn't a "feedback loop" after identifying the very clear "feedback loop".

Do I not understand what you're calling a "feedback loop" @Crow_Hunter ?

 

[Crow_Hunter]

That's exactly my point, he's complaining that there isn't a "feedback loop" after identifying the very clear "feedback loop".

Do I not understand what you're calling a "feedback loop" @Crow_Hunter ?

A feed back loop would be a system that would verify to the operator that what they are doing is correct.

This is what should have been implemented:

1. Operator selects new mode

2. Sensor should detect position of mode shift lever

3. Display should show that new mode is selected via the indicator flashing the newly selected mode

4. When newly selected mode has completed shift sequence, indicator should go solid

Manual should read:

"Upon shifting into new mode, mode indicator will flash, avoid putting load on drivetrain components until mode select indicator stops flashing. Forward motion and/or steering wheel motion may be required to fully engage drivetrain components. Solid mode indicator is required before drivetrain components are put under load"

That is a proper operator feedback loop. The current loop does not have a good closed loop feedback.

Failures of current feedback loop:

1. Operator can not tell if mode has been selected when the shift lever is moved. It is possible that the shift cable is out of adjustment enough that the mode is not selected
2. There is no warning that damage can occur if load is applied before full engagement only that you shouldn't shift while moving, but then states that the machine may need to move....
3. Without the above feedback loop the potential failure mode exists that an operator could follow the instructions in the manual, select a mode, not realize that it had not been selected, apply a load and have the unit suffer damage as the shifter cable engages late

This should have come up if Honda had done a rigorous Value Engineering evaluation of the DFMEA. It should have had a very high Probability score and a high Detection score.

 

[tig]

The dash shows you what mode you're actually in right? If you change the mode you're in and the dash doesn't change then the mode didn't change that's your feedback that it didn't shift. If the dash never changes then it never shifted and something is wrong, e.g. cable adjustment.

In the end Honda gives you a warranty on it right? So it's probably in their interest to make sure the system works and people aren't blowing their diffs up left and right because it would be pretty hard to prove that everybody did something wrong and that would cost them money.

 

[Plumber101010]

This should have come up if Honda had done a rigorous Value Engineering evaluation of the DFMEA. It should have had a very high Probability score and a high Detection score.

Key words being "HAD DONE". And that's a more in-depth, complicated area. But seeing as how they never tested something much more simple, like verifying that the bed could actually dump it's listed capacity, it doesn't quite surprise me whatsoever they missed that

I will say I learned a lot by reading this post. Very informative.

Ya know (pulls up britches and spits on ground) my waterline loops sound a LOT like your feedb...

 

[Crow_Hunter]

The dash shows you what mode you're actually in right? If you change the mode you're in and the dash doesn't change then the mode didn't change that's your feedback that it didn't shift. If the dash never changes then it never shifted and something is wrong, e.g. cable adjustment.

In the end Honda gives you a warranty on it right? So it's probably in their interest to make sure the system works and people aren't blowing their diffs up left and right because it would be pretty hard to prove that everybody did something wrong and that would cost them money.

Yes it does. However, it is an open feedback loop rather than a closed one. It should be improved.

My old 1999 Silverado pickup would do that. The 2016 Yamaha Wolverine does that. My 2011 Silverado does that. Why can't a 2016 Honda Pioneer do that?

Yes they do have a warranty on it, but will they honor it or say that you shifted it while on the move?

I would assume that the failure analysis of a Locking Diff lock ring engaging under a load being indexed via solenoid by operator action while driving at 30MPH or because of a stretched cable engaging late would look identical when taken apart. So was it a Warranty or customer negligence?