P1000 The Good, the Bad and the Meh

Crow_Hunter

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I also had the issue of cables not being adjusted properly. I blame my dealership, not Honda. I actually prefer the cable operated shifters as they are more reliable once they are BROKEN IN and ADJUSTED PROPERLY. I adjusted my cables once around 100 miles maybe, they have been perfect since then. I keep an eye on the trail ahead and engage the preferred mode prior to needing it and it's always worked great. Sometimes it engages immediately and some times it take 10 feet.

I also shift on the fly even though it's not recommended. As CP said, you MUST be sure that all wheels are spinning the same speed. I've logged approx 1500 miles on two different pioneers with out one issue. However, I can almost guarantee that if you were spinning the back tires and put it in 4x4 at the same time.....bad things would happen.

Crow_Hunter, hang in there. I hope you will get over the little things and start enjoying your new Honda. As always, we are hear to assist with any help you need.

Joe

So you don't think that I did any damage by not waiting until the indicator changed before moving?

Any idea what it would look/sound like if there was damage?

Gearing is something I haven't dealt with much. I know some about cutting exterior splines and broaching interior splines but not much about meshing and or damage from improper meshing.
 
CumminsPusher

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I sure don't! You can shift without stopping or waiting but just do it within reason. If you feel you shouldn't then don't. If you're spinning don't. Let off. Its cable drive you should be ok
 
joeymt33

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It would sound like missing a gear in a manual transmission vehicle. If you were to drain the differential oil, you would see a lot of metal flakes and maybe even larger pieces if you had done damage.

Like you said, the indicator tells you that it is engaged. The indicator sensor is actually in the differential.

Unless you've heard a lot of loud noises or found a lot of metal flakes in the oil, I don't think you've done any damage. I will shift in and out of four-wheel-drive while driving 5 miles an hour for 20 miles an hour. (remember, I can't recommend that you try this. Because it's not recommended by Honda. Perform this at your own risk)
 
CumminsPusher

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It would sound like missing a gear in a manual transmission vehicle. If you were to drain the differential oil, you would see a lot of metal flakes and maybe even larger pieces if you had done damage.

Like you said, the indicator tells you that it is engaged. The indicator sensor is actually in the differential.

Unless you've heard a lot of loud noises or found a lot of metal flakes in the oil, I don't think you've done any damage. I will shift in and out of four-wheel-drive while driving 5 miles an hour for 20 miles an hour. (remember, I can't recommend that you try this. Because it's not recommended by Honda. Perform this at your own risk)
I don't condone that either...:) The reason Honda doesn't suggest it you'll have people doing donuts in the snow and engage it. There is safe and unsafe. People that have 4byed in old trucks will do it safely
 
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ghost

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It would sound like missing a gear in a manual transmission vehicle. If you were to drain the differential oil, you would see a lot of metal flakes and maybe even larger pieces if you had done damage.

Like you said, the indicator tells you that it is engaged. The indicator sensor is actually in the differential.

Unless you've heard a lot of loud noises or found a lot of metal flakes in the oil, I don't think you've done any damage. I will shift in and out of four-wheel-drive while driving 5 miles an hour for 20 miles an hour. (remember, I can't recommend that you try this. Because it's not recommended by Honda. Perform this at your own risk)
You shift into 4 wheel lock at 20 mph? (or just 4wd)

Someone reported a loud clunk after shifting into 4 wheel lock and stepped on the gas before the light came on.
 
joeymt33

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I shift thru all of them. I would dare to say that I've never intentionally stopped to shift on my p700 and p1000. Again, I make sure I'm not spinning be wheels.
 
CumminsPusher

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I shift thru all of them. I would dare to say that I've never intentionally stopped to shift on my p700 and p1000. Again, I make sure I'm not spinning be wheels.
Pretty much like Joey here to. I'm a little slower speeds going into and out of the locks but 2wd and 4wd any speed here. I won't do it if hard on or hard off the gas but easy throttle. If done right I'll argue it'll hurt anything. I've NEVER heard anything. Just use common sense. If done wrong it'll go haywire. Think of an old truck with lockers locked, you can shift. Same thing. 2700mi on the 700,1600mi on the previous 1000 and 300 on this one all done the same. But that is us. I don't appreciate stopping and won't. So I guess you can say it's "possible " to shift like a Polaris with a direct gearbox like the Pioneer. DONT BE SPINNING! Use common sense (however you should follow Honda recommendations:))
 
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So you don't think that I did any damage by not waiting until the indicator changed before moving?

Any idea what it would look/sound like if there was damage?

Gearing is something I haven't dealt with much. I know some about cutting exterior splines and broaching interior splines but not much about meshing and or damage from improper meshing.
Spread your fingers apart and place your fingertips together with your forearms making a strait, continuous line. Rotate one hand and your fingers will "mesh" or fall into the space your other fingers have in between them. Now your hands are locked. Notice if both forearms were spinning at the same speed the teeth (or fingers) would never couple. It requires one shaft (forearm) to rotate at a different speed than the other for the teeth (fingers) to fall into the others. This is why Honda/Yamaha, etc. with this design instruct you to turn left to right while going slow so that if the teeth aren't in a spot to fall right in once pressure is applied (through cable, actuator, air line, etc.), the driver is responsible for mechanically rotating the driveline to engage the coupler by causing the left/right tires to rotate at different speeds. As you know, when you turn you force the inside CV shaft to rotate slower than the outside, thus coupling your diff once you have applied force to the arm by shifting the cable lever.
I would say as long as your tires were spinning at the same speed you did not damage anything. Remember, 2wd to 4wd involves front to rear meshing in the sub trans, but turf to 2 and 4 to lock involve ONLY that particular diff which would be left to right motion. One involves the sub trans, the others involve the diffs only. In other words if your back tires were spinning out and your front tires were not, then when shifting from 2 to 4, you could damage the sub trans. If your entire drive line was rotating at the same speed, you'd be OK. It just gets harder and more dangerous to try to mesh gears at speed. Regarding your diff, if you were in 4wd spinning tires and your front right tire was slinging mud while your front left was sitting motionless, this is when you could blow something up by throwing it into lock. As you already know they aren't going to mesh, and if you tried to apply pressure theyd probably grind until it popped in.
Think of it like this, if your right forearm was spinning at 2500 RPMs and your left forearm was motionless and you tried to mesh your fingers, you'd break the distal phalanges clean off - except gears would grind until they engaged.
My Pioneer frustrated me as well at first which is why I got on here asking questions. Once I figured out how to fix my mode selector issue (mine wouldn't go into turf mode without a lot of encouragement) it has been great. I, just as you, was concerned for my drive line not knowing if it was in or not as I didn't want to do damage by leaving the lever in turf applying pressure and it try to engage/disengage at speed. I would turn slowly and watch the inside tire until it indicated whether it was free spinning or locked in. I no longer have this issue, but I agree it can be aggravating. Hang in there - I am hoping yours loosens up with continued break in and a small adjustment. Consider this your CVT break in period. Just as those units have to be broken in at variable speeds - per owner's manual - or you could groove your sheaves (not covered under warranty if dealer deems you didn't break in properly), these strait gears, couplers, collars, etc. sometimes need to be broken in before they engage smoothly. I can tell you this - it will get smoother - as this is documented on this forum by multiple members.
 
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Crow_Hunter

Crow_Hunter

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Spread your fingers apart and place your fingertips together with your forearms making a strait, continuous line. Rotate one hand and your fingers will "mesh" or fall into the space your other fingers have in between them. Now your hands are locked. Notice if both forearms were spinning at the same speed the teeth (or fingers) would never couple. It requires one shaft (forearm) to rotate at a different speed than the other for the teeth (fingers) to fall into the others. This is why Honda/Yamaha, etc. with this design instruct you to turn left to right while going slow so that if the teeth aren't in a spot to fall right in once pressure is applied (through cable, actuator, air line, etc.), the driver is responsible for mechanically rotating the driveline to engage the coupler by causing the left/right tires to rotate at different speeds. As you know, when you turn you force the inside CV shaft to rotate slower than the outside, thus coupling your diff once you have applied force to the arm by shifting the cable lever.
I would say as long as your tires were spinning at the same speed you did not damage anything. Remember, 2wd to 4wd involves front to rear meshing in the sub trans, but turf to 2 and 4 to lock involve ONLY that particular diff which would be left to right motion. One involves the sub trans, the others involve the diffs only. In other words if your back tires were spinning out and your front tires were not, then when shifting from 2 to 4, you could damage the sub trans. If your entire drive line was rotating at the same speed, you'd be OK. It just gets harder and more dangerous to try to mesh gears at speed. Regarding your diff, if you were in 4wd spinning tires and your front right tire was slinging mud while your front left was sitting motionless, this is when you could blow something up by throwing it into lock. As you already know they aren't going to mesh, and if you tried to apply pressure theyd probably grind until it popped in.
Think of it like this, if your right forearm was spinning at 2500 RPMs and your left forearm was motionless and you tried to mesh your fingers, you'd break the distal phalanges clean off - except gears would grind until they engaged.
My Pioneer frustrated me as well at first which is why I got on here asking questions. Once I figured out how to fix my mode selector issue (mine wouldn't go into turf mode without a lot of encouragement) it has been great. I, just as you, was concerned for my drive line not knowing if it was in or not as I didn't want to do damage by leaving the lever in turf applying pressure and it try to engage/disengage at speed. I would turn slowly and watch the inside tire until it indicated whether it was free spinning or locked in. I no longer have this issue, but I agree it can be aggravating. Hang in there - I am hoping yours loosens up with continued break in and a small adjustment. Consider this your CVT break in period. Just as those units have to be broken in at variable speeds - per owner's manual - or you could groove your sheaves (not covered under warranty if dealer deems you didn't break in properly), these strait gears, couplers, collars, etc. sometimes need to be broken in before they engage smoothly. I can tell you this - it will get smoother - as this is documented on this forum by multiple members.

There are definitely some things about this machine that I like but there are quite a bit of things about it that I really don't like.

Considering that I have not yet really "tromped on it", I agree with others, I probably didn't damage anything. It is just frustrating me to no end that I am worried about damaging it rather than just enjoying it. But I am worried because there aren't really any well engineered driver feedback loops built into the system to alleviate those concerns.

If this was a $10k machine, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me other than an occasional question about how to do something better but at a price that is technically more than my daily driver is currently worth, I am significantly more critical and careful with it.

I probably jumped into the deep end on this one while only being able to dog paddle and should have stayed in the kiddie pool to start with.
 
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sharp

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You gotta jump in somewhere! Give it some time, then you will look back after a few hundred miles, and after you gain confidence in the rig, and think man I worried over nothing!
 
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CumminsPusher

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There are definitely some things about this machine that I like but there are quite a bit of things about it that I really don't like.

Considering that I have not yet really "tromped on it", I agree with others, I probably didn't damage anything. It is just frustrating me to no end that I am worried about damaging it rather than just enjoying it. But I am worried because there aren't really any well engineered driver feedback loops built into the system to alleviate those concerns.

If this was a $10k machine, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me other than an occasional question about how to do something better but at a price that is technically more than my daily driver is currently worth, I am significantly more critical and careful with it.

I probably jumped into the deep end on this one while only being able to dog paddle and should have stayed in the kiddie pool to start with.
Crowhunter I don't think you're going to hurt it. I think you just need to get to 100mi do the fluid changes including the heavy diff fluid let the machine break in and see. With this machine the harder you drive it the quicker it breaks in. I'd be happy to break it in for you if you were closer:):):)just take care of a few things you don't like that you knew about and then enjoy!!! Nothing's perfect and even most of us that do have some complaints about it wouldn't want something else.
 
CumminsPusher

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@sharp is very sharp! Listen to him! @500 too. Everyone is saying the same thing. Trust one of us that has more miles.
 
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There are definitely some things about this machine that I like but there are quite a bit of things about it that I really don't like.

Considering that I have not yet really "tromped on it", I agree with others, I probably didn't damage anything. It is just frustrating me to no end that I am worried about damaging it rather than just enjoying it. But I am worried because there aren't really any well engineered driver feedback loops built into the system to alleviate those concerns.

If this was a $10k machine, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me other than an occasional question about how to do something better but at a price that is technically more than my daily driver is currently worth, I am significantly more critical and careful with it.

I probably jumped into the deep end on this one while only being able to dog paddle and should have stayed in the kiddie pool to start with.
I agree with you and felt your pain at first when I had turf mode issues from lack of proper cable adjustment - though to a smaller degree as I was somewhat expecting most of it to need breaking in. The cost of this unit does significantly amplify doubt when it begins creeping in. Just rest assured the R&D guys gave these units absolute hell when testing for thousands and thousands of miles. Look at how badly people abuse these things and they have no issues (burnouts on 32's, hitting the rev limiter on 30's slinging mud, pulling loads in excess of what is stated it can handle). As overly cautious and as particular as you are (which is a compliment - not meaning in a negatively critical way), yours should never have an issue as the fail-safe threshold is way higher than yours or my machine will ever see. If these things "blew up" in any way from normal daily use or from normally expected side by side use, I would say they are a total waste of money - but, I have yet to see that be the case.
You have every right to dislike your Honda, and I don't blame you one bit if it is falling below your expectations. To put it plainly, pricing does set, or influence, expectations, and when you're priced near the top expectations will be near the top. However, not everyone can be totally pleased either.
 
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joeymt33

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Here you go @Crow_Hunter, you didn't specifically ask for this one. But I thought I would show you how quiet and smooth the same shift after they get broke in.

 
joeymt33

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The banging of the clutch solenoids is almost nonexistent. They were pretty loud When the vehicle was new.
 
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Crow_Hunter

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The banging of the clutch solenoids is almost nonexistent. They were pretty loud When the vehicle was new.

Wow. That was like watching a CVT without the whine. Mine doesn't sound anything like that at all. I am not bothered by how it shifts now but dang that was nice.
 
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CumminsPusher

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Wow. That was like watching a CVT without the whine. Mine doesn't sound anything like that at all. I am not bothered by how it shifts now but dang that was nice.
Drive the piss out of it like Joey does it'll get there:)
 
educ8tedguess

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I know I haven't chimed in much on this but the banging noise does get much better with time. I only have a few hundred miles on mine now; but after my first service, it was quieter and the next big improvement came after I was playing in a huge sand area that was just off the trail on our last trip. I ripped that thing around like I was trying to destroy it. Ran it in sport mode and it shifted constantly and confidently. Then I ran the heck out of it on the trails. After that trip, it was noticeably smoother.

I needed to get off of my personal "break in". I was so caught up in what I spent that I treated it like my daily driver. Once I let go a little and enjoyed myself more, the machine seemed to do better too.

These things are tough. And if there are weak parts, I want to find them while I have my warranty
 
sharp

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I think crow hunter is hunting the crows about the rig when he needs to be hunting the ducks about the rig! Get it. Lol
 
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