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Talon What to purchase

dpnorth

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Agreed. I wish that we would have went with the YXZ1000R SS SE ourselves after I had the chance to test drive one. Just read some of the head to head tests and they always give the nod to the Yamaha.
I was in the same boat, but came back to the talon. It all depends on type of riding you do IMO. I don’t like the idea of the ecu slipping the clutch for me at low speeds. Creeping down the trails with kids behind me is something I do a lot. That and the occasional mud hole. The option for auto shift mode too is super nice. Can always respring shocks. Just feel like the yxz is a one trick pony. The talon seems more well rounded. I basically want a p1k with more suspension, pretty much what she is!


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Fyathyrio

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Here is my pros/cons list for the RZR Velocity vs. Honda Talon decision.

. . .

Still struggling, but hope to make a purchase this week.
I can't speak to Polaris anything, but after over 1200 trouble free miles through southern Utah mountain & valley trails in the past 2 months I can comment on some of your Honda list cons.

- i4WD is basically a repurposed anti-lock brake system, generally a proven technology that Honda nailed a couple decades ago.
- Body roll is a thing, but easily planned for once used to it. I don't really notice it anymore except really fast turns on the street when heading to the trails (or post office!) Part of the sacrifice that comes with longer travel shocks, I guess, or engineering/marketing compromises required to meet a price point.
- Suspension, yeah . . . can be harsh, but rides sweet on faster, smoother trails.
- I've seen aftermarket options for pretty much everything along with competition/options from various vendors with the possible exception of engine upgrades. Something specific in mind you're not seeing?
- I thought the tires were small, too, but haven't had a problem yet with the incredible approach and departure angles built in. Trails here aren't that rutted out where larger tires are needed though, and I try and avoid deep mud. With good tire placement, I rarely touch the skid/frame/suspension on the rocks.
- Haven't had a problem with current power levels yet, about convinced myself that a $6k turbo kit is solving a problem I don't have. It still climbs steep trails just fine at 10k ft without the extra power.
- Dual sheer (& general reliability overall) a valid concern, but the forum here isn't filling up with many issues. Teh Facetwitgrams may have more info on reliability, but I'll never know it.

One con you may wish to add is that the airbox intake sucks a ton of dust. Many folks (myself included) are having to replace the air filter at each 600mi service. The stock design doesn't allow for easily adding a pre-filter, and current alternate intakes require running without a back window and/or drilling big holes in the body.

Twenty years ago I got a Jeep and started upgrading all the things, eventually getting to the point that 90% of my riding was too easy and boring while the last 10% was still dangerous or had high chance of breaking s***. The expensive life lesson learned was don't upgrade until you have to, not because you can.

Good luck with your choice.
 
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jcarr343

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I can't speak to Polaris anything, but after over 1200 trouble free miles through southern Utah mountain & valley trails in the past 2 months I can comment on some of your Honda list cons.

- i4WD is basically a repurposed anti-lock brake system, generally a proven technology that Honda nailed a couple decades ago.
- Body roll is a thing, but easily planned for once used to it. I don't really notice it anymore except really fast turns on the street when heading to the trails (or post office!) Part of the sacrifice that comes with longer travel shocks, I guess, or engineering/marketing compromises required to meet a price point.
- Suspension, yeah . . . can be harsh, but rides sweet on faster, smoother trails.
- I've seen aftermarket options for pretty much everything along with competition/options from various vendors with the possible exception of engine upgrades. Something specific in mind you're not seeing?
- I thought the tires were small, too, but haven't had a problem yet with the incredible approach and departure angles built in. Trails here aren't that rutted out where larger tires are needed though, and I try and avoid deep mud. With good tire placement, I rarely touch the skid/frame/suspension on the rocks.
- Haven't had a problem with current power levels yet, about convinced myself that a $6k turbo kit is solving a problem I don't have. It still climbs steep trails just fine at 10k ft without the extra power.
- Dual sheer (& general reliability overall) a valid concern, but the forum here isn't filling up with many issues. Teh Facetwitgrams may have more info on reliability, but I'll never know it.

One con you may wish to add is that the airbox intake sucks a ton of dust. Many folks (myself included) are having to replace the air filter at each 600mi service. The stock design doesn't allow for easily adding a pre-filter, and current alternate intakes require running without a back window and/or drilling big holes in the body.

Good luck with your choice.
Thanks for the great information! Any additional feedback on the i4WD system? How about the DCT? Others have commented on gear hunting, have you noticed?
 

Fyathyrio

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i4WD is seamless for the most part. I mostly run in 2WD since it's a bit quieter and likely better gas mileage. 4WD is an on-the-fly button push, other models may require stopping and shifting (not sure, my 1st SxS)

DCT is awesome IMHO, putting through town at 25MPH in 5th gear with a quiet motor behind me is great. Every other model I test drove was screaming at that low speed. I select 5th to drop RPMs and noise down to be a good neighbor and keep the right to drive on the street, the DCT would use 4th at that speed and run a little louder/higher RPM. Not a choice any other machine could make.

DCT on the trail is mostly fine for me, I generally let it do it's own thing and don't notice it exists. When going fast, and stomping on brakes entering a turn, it may not downshift enough to race out after the apex. I've learned to hit the paddle in those situations and just keep on going. Engine braking is great with the real transmission, so I don't have to use the brakes much when just cruising trails. I've never experienced any hunting, just the occasional wrong selection compared to my desires. No different than driving a stick shift car or motorcycle on the street and occasionally choosing a gear that's too high, or having to wait for an automatic tranny to downshift once or twice so you can pass that slow car ahead of you.

Looks like you replied while I was editing my post above to add my life lesson on over upgrading, might apply unless you're 100% sure your style of riding/trails will need more power, larger tires, etc.
 

jcarr343

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This weekend I got a chance to drive two machines on a very short loop, my total seat time was low. First up was a 19 XPT (Velocity was sold) than I got in the Talon 1000R. These two feel like very different cars. The RZR had a softer driving experience that was very fun and playful, and the Talon was much more raw. The 68” Talon was wider but it did not feel any more stable in the corners. One thing Polaris does right is overall in cabin ergonomics. One good way to tell is that when driving aggressively, I never thought about the RZR’s interior space, seating position, etc… The Talon on the other hand felt a little on the small side and with the DCT, you find yourself thinking much more about the machine and not the trail ahead of you. Again, I did not spend a lot of time with these units, but the RZR just felt easier to jump in and go.

The transmission is the big difference here. Even though the Talon was down on power, it still felt quicker and has lots of low end grunt. I’m sure once you get the RZR’s CVT going it would walk on the Talon. Manually shifting the Talon when aggressively driving down tight twisty trails is not a great option. I much preferred having the shifting done for me. Not sure if the DCT would have that much of an advantage over a CVT if it’s always in automatic mode…? I guess you would not have worry about belts breaking.

One thing I’m having trouble with is the looks of that Talon. I’ve seen some pictures online where it looks amazing, but most of the time I am not a fan of the styling. The RZR if much more pleasing to the eye. The one I drove was pearl white and burnt orange, plus it has a metal white roof. Looked awesome

Overall they’re both fantastic. I don’t think you could go wrong here. It may end up coming down to price for me.
 

Hometeam

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Polaris's have to look good because that is mostly all you can do is look at them while they get repaired!!! Sorry had too and it is unfortunately true....you will either end up driving it like a grandparent on Sunday or you will be fixing it on Monday!!

I have a buddy with a brand new Turbo Can Am 4-seater and he just raced a brand new Talon 2-seater and could not pull away from him....the Talon jumped out a little at first and then the can am caught it by the end. The Can Am is heavier with it being the 4-seater but if that is all a turbo unit can do over a non-turbo talon then I wouldn't even consider a belt driven maintenance trap if they gave it to me. And his Turbo Can Am with 300 miles is now up for sale so he can buy a Talon. He would sell that to you if price is king.

I bought my first Polaris a month ago and the first day I had it at the off road park (3rd day of owning it) I had to tow it out of the trails....its your money but for me there is nothing more frustrating than fixing things non-stop while I am out trying to have fun with my boys!!
 
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Russ989

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Don't care about the Turbo, I just know there are enhancements to the drivetrain on turbo models.
It’s not going to be a better drivetrain than the talon. The DCT is far more superior, if I were going to buy a belt machine it would be a Yamaha. The main thing is finding what fits your needs, that might be the Polaris. I’m not saying they are junk, they’ve been at this for a while now but the Talon is a much better machine in my opinion.
 
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PaulF

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Don't care about the Turbo, I just know there are enhancements to the drivetrain on turbo models.
The Talon is already enhanced to accept a turbo so you automatically get a better drivetrain on the Talon without the turbo. So, if you don't care about a turbo like you say then the Talon makes more sense for you.

Here is my pros/cons list for the RZR Velocity vs. Honda Talon decision.

Honda Talon 1000R

Pros:
DCT trans will not burn up belts
Fit and finish is very good
Seats are good
Honda reliability (based on Honda’s past)
Talon seems to be able to go everywhere the RZRs can based on YouTube
Being just under 70” will allow the Talon to fit on rental trailers

Cons:
Newer machine with many unknowns still
i4WD relies on a lot of sensors. Hopefully it holds up over time
Suspension is known to be harsh and needs an adjustment
Exhibits a lot of body roll in most videos I have seen
Some questionable rigidity decisions (single shear rear hubs)
Wheel and Tire package is too small
Aftermarket options still need some catching up
Turbo upgrade is very expensive

Option Parts Needed Soon:
Dual Rate Spring Kit: $650
Wheel/Tire Package: $1400
Harness: $250
Dual Shear kit: $150


Polaris Turbo S Velocity

Pros:
More powerful engine and better performance overall
CVT is cheap to fix and tune
Mechanical front diff seems superior to i4WD
Frame and suspension components looks much beefier
72” wide is more stable
Comes with 32” tires and 4 point harness already
Lots of aftermarket and group support
The Velocity I’m looking at comes with a metal roof and half windshield

Cons:
72” will not fit on most rental trailers. This will force me to buy and store something
CVT Belts
Suspension known to be harsh at lower speeds and sag a lot over time
Questionable Polaris quality (lots of stories about bearings and weak components)

Option Parts Needed Soon:
Dual Rate Spring Kit: $950
CVT Spare belt and toolkit: $300
Belt Temp Gauge: $250
Cost of Trailer: $1800
Trailer Storage: $90 per month


If I ride the Talon, will I always be dreaming about the turbo performance from that Velocity?
If I bring home a Polaris and something breaks, will be be kicking myself for not picking the “more reliable” machine?

Still struggling, but hope to make a purchase this week.
I must rebut some of your Pros/Cons...

Talon Cons...
i4WD relies on a lot of sensors. Hopefully it holds up over time
  • ALL of these new machines have a lot of sensors. i4WD has been around for several years with very few sensor issues.
Some questionable rigidity decisions (single shear rear hubs)
  • There is a total of ONE reported broken rear knuckle that I have been able to find on any Honda machines (1 Talon). I lost count of the other brands.
Polaris Pros...
CVT is cheap to fix and tune
  • Not sure where you got that idea. A good clutch for a Polaris that won't blow up is $3000+ and weight/spring kits are $350 EACH. For $400 ($350 on sale), you can buy a tuner and have ultimate control over the Talon's stable and reliable DCT and tune it to your heart's content for FREE. Or pay a mear $100 and get a professional DCT tune and get Launch Control to boot. You can also use that same tuner and adjust just about everything in the PCU and any DynoJet facility can use it to flash your PCU. Try that with any other brand.
Mechanical front diff seems superior to i4WD
  • This is simply not the case, you have it backwards. i4WD is equal when it comes to traction and is superior in handling/cornering. Locked diffs don't turn worth a crap but i4WD is simply a dream to drive and works flawlessly.
Frame and suspension components looks much beefier
  • Looks aren't everything. Not saying one is better than the other without an x-ray. An expensive molly medium wall 1 inch tube is superior to a cheap mild steel thin wall 1.5 inch tube and we don't know what each machine has without destructive analyzation.
72” wide is more stable
  • That all depends on where the weight is placed. Need the actual tilt table and NTSB data.
I am not trying to talk you out of another brand but you need to compare them fairly if you are going to make this much fuss over it. Some of your reasoning seems like you are trying to "talk yourself" into what to buy (or not buy) and not the actual facts.
 
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jcarr343

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The Talon is already enhanced to accept a turbo so you automatically get a better drivetrain on the Talon without the turbo. So, if you don't care about a turbo like you say then the Talon makes more sense for you.


I must rebut some of your Pros/Cons...

Talon Cons...
i4WD relies on a lot of sensors. Hopefully it holds up over time
  • ALL of these new machines have a lot of sensors. i4WD has been around for several years with very few sensor issues.
Some questionable rigidity decisions (single shear rear hubs)
  • There is a total of ONE reported broken rear knuckle that I have been able to find on any Honda machines (1 Talon). I lost count of the other brands.
Polaris Pros...
CVT is cheap to fix and tune
  • Not sure where you got that idea. A good clutch for a Polaris that won't blow up is $3000+ and weight/spring kits are $350 EACH. For $400 ($350 on sale), you can buy a tuner and have ultimate control over the Talon's stable and reliable DCT and tune it to your heart's content for FREE. Or pay a mear $100 and get a professional DCT tune and get Launch Control to boot. You can also use that same tuner and adjust just about everything in the PCU and any DynoJet facility can use it to flash your PCU. Try that with any other brand.
Mechanical front diff seems superior to i4WD
  • This is simply not the case, you have it backwards. i4WD is equal when it comes to traction and is superior in handling/cornering. Locked diffs don't turn worth a crap but i4WD is simply a dream to drive and works flawlessly.
Frame and suspension components looks much beefier
  • Looks aren't everything. Not saying one is better than the other without an x-ray. An expensive molly medium wall 1 inch tube is superior to a cheap mild steel thin wall 1.5 inch tube and we don't know what each machine has without destructive analyzation.
72” wide is more stable
  • That all depends on where the weight is placed. Need the actual tilt table and NTSB data.
I am not trying to talk you out of another brand but you need to compare them fairly if you are going to make this much fuss over it. Some of your reasoning seems like you are trying to "talk yourself" into what to buy (or not buy) and not the actual facts.

Thank you for taking the time to write this up for me! It was very helpful. I don't have a lot of experience and mostly going on what I read in forums and YouTube comments. I just about pulled the trigger this weekend, but they tried to charge me over $2K in fees.
 

PaulF

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Thank you for taking the time to write this up for me! It was very helpful. I don't have a lot of experience and mostly going on what I read in forums and YouTube comments. I just about pulled the trigger this weekend, but they tried to charge me over $2K in fees.
That is typical. Now you need to sharpen up on you negotiating skills. Email all the dealers you want to deal with and get an "Out The Door" price and don't settle for anything else. Then you can compare each machine AND the final number from each dealer. Do this with multiple dealers for each brand too.

If you are getting quotes from out of state, make sure you add your state's sales tax if applicable.
 
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jcarr343

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That is typical. Now you need to sharpen up on you negotiating skills. Email all the dealers you want to deal with and get an "Out The Door" price and don't settle for anything else. Then you can compare each machine AND the final number from each dealer. Do this with multiple dealers for each brand too.

If you are getting quotes from out of state, make sure you add your state's sales tax if applicable.

Working on that now. I just posted my experience in the buying section.
 
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jcarr343

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One last concern I had about the Talon was its flight when jumping. I noticed a lot of nose dive in a lot of online videos. What could be causing this and what can be done to address it?
 
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dpnorth

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One last concern I had about the Talon was its flight when jumping. I noticed a lot of nose dive in a lot of online videos. What could be causing this and what can be done to address it?
Honda engineered the the Talon to fly level with a 45qt cooler (full of ice, & canned hops), and ample blown-belt recovery equipment in the bed. Try loading it up to fly flatter.
 

Russ989

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One last concern I had about the Talon was its flight when jumping. I noticed a lot of nose dive in a lot of online videos. What could be causing this and what can be done to address it?
Have you ever rode dirt bikes? It’s probably driver skill you’re seeing. Let up on the throttle or tap the brakes to bring the nose down, and give it throttle to bring front up.
 
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PaulF

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One last concern I had about the Talon was its flight when jumping. I noticed a lot of nose dive in a lot of online videos. What could be causing this and what can be done to address it?
ANY SxS will nose dive, it is driver error! I experience the same thing in multiple brands/models because I don't know how to jump so I don't try to jump anymore. My buddy is very experienced and jumps his a lot and flies straight and his is bone stock except sand tires.

Here is a bad pic (screenshot from a video). He is flying, notice that flag. He jumped a dozen times that day, in excess of 50 feet on several jumps. No nose dive here...

upload_2019-12-9_22-22-24.png
 

ohanacreek

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ANY SxS will nose dive, it is driver error! I experience the same thing in multiple brands/models because I don't know how to jump so I don't try to jump anymore. My buddy is very experienced and jumps his a lot and flies straight and his is bone stock except sand tires.

Here is a bad pic (screenshot from a video). He is flying, notice that flag. He jumped a dozen times that day, in excess of 50 feet on several jumps. No nose dive here...

View attachment 169723
Two videos come to mind “the talon won’t fly” which has been deleted cause the guy was a DA. He tried to jump a road which is the wrong shape jump. And anything at dunes, off a correctly shaped jump, listen they keep the motor revved or give it throttle to control the machines attitude in the air. The effect of revving the gas is more pronounced on a motorcycle because of the mass of the motorcycle vs the forward rotating drivetrain mass, because of this you have a harder time correcting a mistake in a vehicle that has a much smaller proportion of its mass being the mass of the powered forward rotating drivetrain.

watch the ones that stay in it till they are launched and the ones the that let off vs the ones that stay in it after they leave the ground.


Two things are happening in this video the front wheels are off the ground and people let off the gas causing drag on the rear pulling the front down.

And

If you let off the gas as you have jumped the rotating mass of the wheels tires axels all stops or slows and that energy transfers to the machine causing IT to rotate the direction the wheels tires axels brake rotors was just rotating. Causing it to nose dive.


Still don’t take this 60sec web based physics lesson and try this at home or a road or SilverLake.



edit: 2WD LS powered sand rails are very heavily biased to the rear vs a 4wD SxS.


And if you do try it please have a “Dixie” horn and a camera!!!
 
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jcarr343

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Two videos come to mind “the talon won’t fly” which has been deleted cause the guy was a DA. He tried to jump a road which is the wrong shape jump. And anything at dunes, off a correctly shaped jump, listen they keep the motor revved or give it throttle to control the machines attitude in the air. The effect of revving the gas is more pronounced on a motorcycle because of the mass of the motorcycle vs the forward rotating drivetrain mass, because of this you have a harder time correcting a mistake in a vehicle that has a much smaller proportion of its mass being the mass of the powered forward rotating drivetrain.

watch the ones that stay in it till they are launched and the ones the that let off vs the ones that stay in it after they leave the ground.


Two things are happening in this video the front wheels are off the ground and people let off the gas causing drag on the rear pulling the front down.

And

If you let off the gas as you have jumped the rotating mass of the wheels tires axels all stops or slows and that energy transfers to the machine causing IT to rotate the direction the wheels tires axels brake rotors was just rotating. Causing it to nose dive.


Still don’t take this 60sec web based physics lesson and try this at home or a road or SilverLake.



edit: 2WD LS powered sand rails are very heavily biased to the rear vs a 4wD SxS.


And if you do try it please have a “Dixie” horn and a camera!!!

If you try to give the talon a throttle correction mid-flight, wouldn't it just hit the rev limiter?
 
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