Blown P500- third time in less than 225 miles..

[Pax]

Hi all,
I would love some advice/expectations regarding a troubled 2018 P500. I purchased the machine last winter with around 500 miles on, all stock, central Washington, older owner. I was told at purchase it had recently had 500 mile service. Like a fool, I double checked nothing. Fast forward to April, I’ve added about 200 miles, winch, cab, and Camso tracks for spring bear baiting- side note I drive like an old man. I ran the machine on about 40 miles of dusty dirt Forrest service roads with a few big drifts. On the way out the machine stalled several times and was losing power, but like a Honda, got me to the truck.

Local Honda shop in north Idaho confirmed low compression, air filter hadn’t been put all the one on by last owner, dirt on spark plug. They gave me a ball park estimate of $3,500 low end up to $6,500 and 5-6 weeks. I vomited a little and found a small local shop that said he could tear it down by the weekend and get parts by the next week. I dropped of my machine with optimism. 6 weeks later after weekly inquiries and not being able to get back to my bear baits, I stood outside of his shop until it was done as I had a friend flying in the next day for his first bear hunting trip. He replaced just top end, said cylinder was fine, about $1700. We took the tracks off and took it real easy on the machine the few days we rode it, varying speeds, just Forrest service roads. I road just around pasture over the summer, taking it easy. By September I had put about 120 miles on it, new walker evans shocks, running well. I took it up an atv trail about 5 miles when it free wheeled for a moment coming down and incline, started losing power, stalling, barely made it to camp, oil on plug and smelling of burning oil- less than 150 miles since new top end.

I then took machine to a seemingly little better local shop (not a dealer). They couldn’t believe it had been rebuilt that recently. They put in a new cylinder and top in, valve clearance, no seals, etc, cleaned entire air intake. They did several warm up cool down cycles over 2 days and gave me instructions to vary speed at up to half throttle for first half of tank then up to 3/4 throttle for second half of tank. I did this on logging roads a civic could drive down with my five year old following on a Honda 50 (slow pace). We did this 2 days totaling about 50 miles. Oil level was good after each trip. Yesterday my friend and I drove easy logging roads, less than 20 mph. About 20 miles it free wheeled for a moment going down hill. About 10 minutes later we stopped and it stalled and died. Started, drove 10 feet, died for good. Oil was at the tip of the dip stick when screwed all the way in, plug had good spark, I assume blown again. The guy with me is an experienced Ford master mechanic that now does all makes and models of cars/trucks, some engine experience. He had commented on how well it was running up until that point. Blown 75 miles of easy riding varying speed after complete top end including cylinder. 5-6 mile walk out last night in the cold snow.

My questions:
What should I expect from my second mechanic? When I picked it up after rebuild up he said it was in great shape. He said they don’t warranty top ends, just complete engine rebuild.

Ideas on problem and solutions?

After blowing 3 times, this isn’t a machine I’ll ever trust as we are often 25 miles deep in off seasons and I like to take my little boys aside from when snowy. Could rebuild again and sell but hate selling a machine knowing it could blow on somebody. I could strip my add ons and sell as as but fear taking thousands in loss that I’ll need for next machine. Maybe a 700-4? Would love a 1000-5 but was already pushing limit on this one with already over $3,500 in failed rebuilds.

Any words of wisdom and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Pax

 

[HBarlow]

Without a detailed list of parts replaced during each repair attempt we can only guess.

Please forgive me. I'm not going to intentionally insult you but am going to be blunt and the truth may hurt.

I think you paid for two "half-assed" repairs which didn't replace all the worn parts.

If an engine ingested dirt and grit long enough to cause failure the piston, piston rings, and cylinder barrel were almost certainly damaged and should be replaced. Also, possibly the rod bearings, crankshaft, and main bearings. A "top end" repair was no repair at all.

You described the second repair as "replaced the cylinder, top in, valve clearance, no seals." Unfortunately the statement doesn't make much sense.

Again, if compression was low and the cylinder was damaged the piston and piston rings were also damaged and possibly the rod bearings, crankshaft, etc.

This is the classic set-up for unsatisfactory mechanical repair, misrepresentations, misunderstandings, accusations, potential fraud, and even lawsuits.

1) a failed machine
2) non-mechanical and uninformed customer seeking cheap repair

We don't know what you said to the mechanics/shops or what was promised.

I prefer to assume both of the shops were honest and well-intentioned, trying to give you a cheap repair and hoping it would be good enough. It's possible that one or both of the shops saw a sucker and took advantage.

The moral of the story is: If you are not a mechanic and not a car/truck/motor enthusiast who is familiar with the internal components of a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine it's often best to take the machine to a dealer with a good reputation and sit down and discuss with the service manager/shop foreman what exactly should be replaced for a guaranteed repair and what WILL BE replaced.

If a Honda dealer does the repair it will be warranted.

Many buggy owners hate their dealers and angrily complain about the $500 first service and other experiences with dealers. It's common. But the fact is if a machine is damaged a long list of new parts and labor will be required for a satisfactory repair. A private shop can only cut the labor rate so a private shop can't cut the cost from $3500 - $6500 to $1700.

I apologize for being so blunt here but you need the truth not bulls*** to make you feel good.

 

[DG Rider]

Hi all,
I would love some advice/expectations regarding a troubled 2018 P500. I purchased the machine last winter with around 500 miles on, all stock, central Washington, older owner. I was told at purchase it had recently had 500 mile service. Like a fool, I double checked nothing. Fast forward to April, I’ve added about 200 miles, winch, cab, and Camso tracks for spring bear baiting- side note I drive like an old man. I ran the machine on about 40 miles of dusty dirt Forrest service roads with a few big drifts. On the way out the machine stalled several times and was losing power, but like a Honda, got me to the truck.

Local Honda shop in north Idaho confirmed low compression, air filter hadn’t been put all the one on by last owner, dirt on spark plug. They gave me a ball park estimate of $3,500 low end up to $6,500 and 5-6 weeks. I vomited a little and found a small local shop that said he could tear it down by the weekend and get parts by the next week. I dropped of my machine with optimism. 6 weeks later after weekly inquiries and not being able to get back to my bear baits, I stood outside of his shop until it was done as I had a friend flying in the next day for his first bear hunting trip. He replaced just top end, said cylinder was fine, about $1700. We took the tracks off and took it real easy on the machine the few days we rode it, varying speeds, just Forrest service roads. I road just around pasture over the summer, taking it easy. By September I had put about 120 miles on it, new walker evans shocks, running well. I took it up an atv trail about 5 miles when it free wheeled for a moment coming down and incline, started losing power, stalling, barely made it to camp, oil on plug and smelling of burning oil- less than 150 miles since new top end.

I then took machine to a seemingly little better local shop (not a dealer). They couldn’t believe it had been rebuilt that recently. They put in a new cylinder and top in, valve clearance, no seals, etc, cleaned entire air intake. They did several warm up cool down cycles over 2 days and gave me instructions to vary speed at up to half throttle for first half of tank then up to 3/4 throttle for second half of tank. I did this on logging roads a civic could drive down with my five year old following on a Honda 50 (slow pace). We did this 2 days totaling about 50 miles. Oil level was good after each trip. Yesterday my friend and I drove easy logging roads, less than 20 mph. About 20 miles it free wheeled for a moment going down hill. About 10 minutes later we stopped and it stalled and died. Started, drove 10 feet, died for good. Oil was at the tip of the dip stick when screwed all the way in, plug had good spark, I assume blown again. The guy with me is an experienced Ford master mechanic that now does all makes and models of cars/trucks, some engine experience. He had commented on how well it was running up until that point. Blown 75 miles of easy riding varying speed after complete top end including cylinder. 5-6 mile walk out last night in the cold snow.

My questions:
What should I expect from my second mechanic? When I picked it up after rebuild up he said it was in great shape. He said they don’t warranty top ends, just complete engine rebuild.

Ideas on problem and solutions?

After blowing 3 times, this isn’t a machine I’ll ever trust as we are often 25 miles deep in off seasons and I like to take my little boys aside from when snowy. Could rebuild again and sell but hate selling a machine knowing it could blow on somebody. I could strip my add ons and sell as as but fear taking thousands in loss that I’ll need for next machine. Maybe a 700-4? Would love a 1000-5 but was already pushing limit on this one with already over $3,500 in failed rebuilds.

Any words of wisdom and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Pax

View attachment 303431

You mentioned "screwing the dipstick in", which may have been an illustrative statement, but you're aware that you DON'T do this to check the oil, right?
'course...that doesn't explain where the oil is going...

Have you cleaned and oiled/examined the air filter?

Hate to say it, but it was probably just a botched repair.

 

[Pax]

Without a detailed list of parts replaced during each repair attempt we can only guess.

Please forgive me. I'm not going to intentionally insult you but am going to be blunt and the truth may hurt.

I think you paid for two "half-assed" repairs which didn't replace all the worn parts.

If an engine ingested dirt and grit long enough to cause failure the piston, piston rings, and cylinder barrel were almost certainly damaged and should be replaced. Also, possibly the rod bearings, crankshaft, and main bearings. A "top end" repair was no repair at all.

You described the second repair as "replaced the cylinder, top in, valve clearance, no seals." Unfortunately the statement doesn't make much sense.

Again, if compression was low and the cylinder was damaged the piston and piston rings were also damaged and possibly the rod bearings, crankshaft, etc.

This is the classic set-up for unsatisfactory mechanical repair, misrepresentations, misunderstandings, accusations, potential fraud, and even lawsuits.

1) a failed machine
2) non-mechanical and uninformed customer seeking cheap repair

We don't know what you said to the mechanics/shops or what was promised.

I prefer to assume both of the shops were honest and well-intentioned, trying to give you a cheap repair and hoping it would be good enough. It's possible that one or both of the shops saw a sucker and took advantage.

The moral of the story is: If you are not a mechanic and not a car/truck/motor enthusiast who is familiar with the internal components of a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine it's often best to take the machine to a dealer with a good reputation and sit down and discuss with the service manager/shop foreman what exactly should be replaced for a guaranteed repair and what WILL BE replaced.

If a Honda dealer does the repair it will be warranted.

Many buggy owners hate their dealers and angrily complain about the $500 first service and other experiences with dealers. It's common. But the fact is if a machine is damaged a long list of new parts and labor will be required for a satisfactory repair. A private shop can only cut the labor rate so a private shop can't cut the cost from $3500 - $6500 to $1700.

I apologize for being so blunt here but you need the truth not bulls*** to make you feel good.

You mentioned "screwing the dipstick in", which may have been an illustrative statement, but you're aware that you DON'T do this to check the oil, right?
'course...that doesn't explain where the oil is going...

Have you cleaned and oiled/examined the air filter?

Hate to say it, but it was probably just a botched repair.

Thank you for the blunt response, exactly what I’m looking for. There are a few things that I know a whole lot about and most things I know very little- motors are waaaay out of my wheel house. The second shop replaced the seals too. Although admittedly I was looking for lower price on the first shop, more than anything I was looking for turn around time to get back to baiting bears- he had promised turn around time and did not deliver. The second shop I just told them I needed to have it fixed right, reliability of motor being highest priority, never mentioned cost, wasn’t in a hurry- they were booked 4-5 weeks before they could do diagnostics. I had a hard time swallowing the dealers higher end of quote being about $1,000 less than cost of entire machine new. I’ll talk to the second rebuild shop today and see what they think.

after first rebuild oil filter was kept clean and oiled. I am aware of not screwing in dipstick, just a reference as to when it gout oil on the tip- no oil if checked appropriately.

Thanks again for the help!!

 

[Pax]

Thank you for the blunt response, exactly what I’m looking for. There are a few things that I know a whole lot about and most things I know very little- motors are waaaay out of my wheel house. The second shop replaced the seals too. Although admittedly I was looking for lower price on the first shop, more than anything I was looking for turn around time to get back to baiting bears- he had promised turn around time and did not deliver. The second shop I just told them I needed to have it fixed right, reliability of motor being highest priority, never mentioned cost, wasn’t in a hurry- they were booked 4-5 weeks before they could do diagnostics. I had a hard time swallowing the dealers higher end of quote being about $1,000 less than cost of entire machine new. I’ll talk to the second rebuild shop today and see what they think.

after first rebuild oil filter was kept clean and oiled. I am aware of not screwing in dipstick, just a reference as to when it gout oil on the tip- no oil if checked appropriately.

Thanks again for the help!!

And as far as mud slinging and lawsuits are concerned, not my MO. The first shop doesn’t even know their top end failed- I accepted that I made a bad choice in where I took it and didn’t want them to work on it again. Are you saying don’t have second shop look at it again and just go to the dealer?

 

[HBarlow]

You're a good man with the right attitude. I've been a "car guy" since I was a young child so I have basic knowledge of engines and motor vehicles. Like you and everyone else, there are many things I know nothing about also.

You are being honest with yourself so it can only get better from here. You might be better off if you can sell this P500 and start over. If you could find a buyer who is to a mechanic and can repair it himself. There are at least three members here who are professional or skilled amateur mechanics who can repair it himself if interested and perhaps more I'm not aware of.

I wish you better luck on your next purchase.

 

[DG Rider]

I am aware of not screwing in dipstick, just a reference as to when it gout oil on the tip- no oil if checked appropriately.

Thanks again for the help!!

That's what I figured.

 

[Mudder]

No excuse for sloppy engine work, but watching other forums it seems the more the small 475cc P500 is equipped and run outside its design like portals and extreme duty, the more failures. I’m unfamiliar how much extra overall stress running tracks in snow does, or if it relates to blown engines. Just saying its Honda’s entry level SxS with limits. Curious as to what alternative machines are out there for such use and their cost. Best of luck getting it sorted out. @906UP is a knowledgable member with engine work and snow machines.

 

[906UP]

I believe @HBarlow called it right. If the engine invested dirt at the first failure it was pretty much doomed. Only a COMPLETE overhaul, as in splitting the cases, replacing all bearings, probably the crank as well, along with the top end would have been the proper repair. There are rebuilt engines available for these rigs, come w a warranty. Swapping the engine is not as hard as it looks, can be done in a few hours. I'll see if I can come up w a link.

 

[Pax]

No excuse for sloppy engine work, but watching other forums it seems the more the small 475cc P500 is equipped and run outside its design like portals and extreme duty, the more failures. I’m unfamiliar how much extra overall stress running tracks in snow does, or if it relates to blown engines. Just saying its Honda’s entry level SxS with limits. Curious as to what alternative machines are out there for such use and their cost. Best of luck getting it sorted out. @906UP is a knowledgable member with engine work and snow machines.

I thinking saving for a

I believe @HBarlow called it right. If the engine invested dirt at the first failure it was pretty much doomed. Only a COMPLETE overhaul, as in splitting the cases, replacing all bearings, probably the crank as well, along with the top end would have been the proper repair. There are rebuilt engines available for these rigs, come w a warranty. Swapping the engine is not as hard as it looks, can be done in a few hours. I'll see if I can come up w a link.

Thanks for the advice. I’ve looked for rebuilt engines a little online without success, but will dig deeper. I spoke briefly with the shop that did the recent work and will be dropping it off there in the morning for them to take a look. Ultimately I think saving for a P1000 5 is best. I need to figure out how to get the P500 fixed to a point that I can ethically sell it (full disclosure of history of course) or sell it blown without losing my shirt.

 

[Smitty335]

I thinking saving for a

Thanks for the advice. I’ve looked for rebuilt engines a little online without success, but will dig deeper. I spoke briefly with the shop that did the recent work and will be dropping it off there in the morning for them to take a look. Ultimately I think saving for a P1000 5 is best. I need to figure out how to get the P500 fixed to a point that I can ethically sell it (full disclosure of history of course) or sell it blown without losing my shirt.

The P1 is a great machine, I would stay clear of the of the LE's / I4WD if you do some serious trail riding. My Dad and I were riding with a couple of LE's and we were leading, we crawled up and over things they had to winch and stack rocks for and they are good riders?