P1000 Broken Bolt mount to A-Arm. 2018 Pioneer 1000-LE

weelad

weelad

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I would hope that Honda would take care of that for you JP as I see this as a design issue when a control arm which appears to be undamaged and reusable survives and the frame breaks?? Seams backwards to me. Shouldnt the frame be a little heavier at that point and the control arm be the weak link?

I wonder if a larger and heavier washer the size of the inboard collar on the control arm could be used at the bolt ends to help increase bite on the frame ear and help strengthen that point?
 
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jp_holy

jp_holy

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07-08-2020. So I spoke with the Service Manager at Honda Marysville today. He told me that Honda would not cover this according to his service manager? He said I hit a hole and it wasn't a weld or anything that failed, and that if he sent the frame back to Honda he might end up eating the cost🧐 I asked him how much it was going to cost, and he said he would figure it out real quick, and call me back. This was 2 hours ago. I am not expecting a phone call back. They have had it for 2 weeks now. How have they not figured out the damage assessment?? He said I should call the dealership in Tennessee where I bought it from, since the GM of that dealer assured me that Honda would cover it under warranty.

I have attached screen shot of conversation between the GM of the Dealer I purchased it from and me. The GM, George Wescott, told me that it would be covered even at another dealership though. I think it is time to get Corporate Honda involved in this matter. I plan on contacting them after this. Very disappointed, but confident someone will make this right. 🤷‍♂️


Email I received from GM Southern Honda in Tennessee day after the machine broke. I sent him all the information & pictures of the damage
IMG 3750
 
BigOL3

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I have attached screen shot of conversation between the GM of the Dealer I purchased it from and me. The GM, George Wescott, told me that it would be covered even at another dealership though. I think it is time to get Corporate Honda involved in this matter. I plan on contacting them after this. Very disappointed, but confident someone will make this right. 🤷‍♂️

Email I received from GM Southern Honda in Tennessee day after the machine broke. I sent him all the information & pictures of the damage
You got more faith about that than I would. They will claim abuse I suspect.

Have you considered it MAY have been damaged and just waiting to break BEFORE you bought it?
 
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Neohio

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Sounds like you have 5 options right now.
1.Call insurance, let them pay for the repair
2. Escalate to Honda corporate and beg/plead them to good will the repair.
3. Drag it back to purchasing dealer, let them fix it. You have in writing it is covered under warranty.
4. Pick up machine, send me a PM, buy a set of weld washers and bolts. Find a local fab shop to install for $100. (If I have any left in stock. I would need to verify)
5. Pay current dealer stupid $ to fix it properly.
 
Cuoutdoors

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07-08-2020. So I spoke with the Service Manager at Honda Marysville today. He told me that Honda would not cover this according to his service manager? He said I hit a hole and it wasn't a weld or anything that failed, and that if he sent the frame back to Honda he might end up eating the cost🧐 I asked him how much it was going to cost, and he said he would figure it out real quick, and call me back. This was 2 hours ago. I am not expecting a phone call back. They have had it for 2 weeks now. How have they not figured out the damage assessment?? He said I should call the dealership in Tennessee where I bought it from, since the GM of that dealer assured me that Honda would cover it under warranty.

I have attached screen shot of conversation between the GM of the Dealer I purchased it from and me. The GM, George Wescott, told me that it would be covered even at another dealership though. I think it is time to get Corporate Honda involved in this matter. I plan on contacting them after this. Very disappointed, but confident someone will make this right. 🤷‍♂️


Email I received from GM Southern Honda in Tennessee day after the machine broke. I sent him all the information & pictures of the damage
View attachment 211620

Sounds like you have 5 options right now.
1.Call insurance, let them pay for the repair
2. Escalate to Honda corporate and beg/plead them to good will the repair.
3. Drag it back to purchasing dealer, let them fix it. You have in writing it is covered under warranty.
4. Pick up machine, send me a PM, buy a set of weld washers and bolts. Find a local fab shop to install for $100. (If I have any left in stock. I would need to verify)
5. Pay current dealer stupid $ to fix it properly.


I think I'd be picking up the machine so its in your possession. They/honda should have all the pics and info they need by now. Start down the trail of option #4 so you can get back in service. Meanwhile pursue option 2 and/or maybe option 3.

Honda can claim it was damaged by you and that last little bump was the final straw. I doubt honda is going to stand behind it. You could hire a lawyer and spend lots of money yet probably still lose.

What sucks most is the best solution isnt an option. That is, the dealer should weld some washers and gussets on so its stronger, paint it,, and send you on your merry way. Unfortunately the honda shop can't weld it because of lawsuits and you can't get them to fix it either. Its not right but might as well move on so you can get back to riding and enjoying your summer.
 
snuffnwhisky

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I would take it to a fab shop and have it fixed and beefed up and do the other side while they are at it. You normally rip the whole tab off the frame instead of the bolt hole and is pretty common if you hit something somewhat hard. A steel angle from the 2 bumper bolts the the A arm tab is a easy fix and much stronger. If you replace the front clip with OEM, you may rip it again and be in the same boat. Worse is if the hole doesn't rip out and the tab comes off.
 
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dswv42

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I'm in the market for a new SXS machine and have been doing a lot of research as I decide if I want to purchase a new Honda Pioneer 1000. During my research, I've found many problems with the machine, and fortunately most of them can be fixed without too much difficulty. However, the front upper control arm problem is not quite so simple, and I'm surprised that nobody has tried to determine the actual source of the failure, which I firmly believe to be a design flaw.

With all due respect, every fix I've seen is little more than bandaid repair, and while some of them may work, they do little to address the actual root cause of the problem, which is directly related to the design of the front upper control arm mount, and possibly the thickness of the steel tube it's welded to. A permanent fix is possible, but it won't be easy.

If you look closely at the pictures the OP posted, you'll notice that the control arm simply broke away from the bracket, that's obvious, but why? The rut the OP hit in the middle of his hayfield is barely even a pothole, and even if he had been going at a high rate of speed, which he clearly wasn't because there are no skidmarks in the grass, the machine should have been able to easily handle it.

To understand why this failure happened, look at the difference between the design of the front upper and lower control arm mount brackets. Look carefully and you'll see that the front lower mounts use two brackets with a total of four steel tabs, and the front upper mount uses one bracket with a total of two steel tabs. What this means is that the front lower control arm brackets are twice as strong as the front upper control arm brackets. Also, I suspect that the front upper control arm bushings are inadequate to prevent sudden shock loads, which may have caused the steel bracket to suddenly snap, or simply pull apart at the bolt hole.

Note the direction the machine was traveling as it relates to the rut. It appears to be the perfect setup to cause a sudden side to side movement that put tremendous outward pressure on the front upper control arm mount, stressing it to the breaking point. Basically, that side of the machine was down, so gravity and inertia caused inward pressure on the front lower control arm, and outward pressure on the front upper control arm.

I believe that Honda is fully aware of the problem, but issuing a bulletin or frame recall would be very expensive (remember Toyota?), so it's clearly in their best interest to deny warranty coverage, claiming owner abuse was the cause. Don't believe me? Look at the design of the front upper control arm mounts of the Honda Talon. That's right, they use two brackets, with a total of four steel tabs. The Honda Pioneer 1000 and Honda Talon 1000 share a common ancestry, and some parts are even interchangeable, so why change the front upper control arm design if there isn't a problem?

As for the options the OP has at his disposal, I would get a lawyer then sue Honda and the dealership who sold him the machine. Better yet, have the lawsuit escalated to class action status, and make it as public as possible. Also get a few government agencies involved, since it's clearly a major safety concern that could easily get someone killed. If that doesn't get their attention, nothing will.
 
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Smitty335

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Dang! Well spoken, I won't buy another Honda P1 or Talon for these exact reasons, Honda needs to get there act together!
 
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DDDonkey

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If you choose to fix yourself, I do have weld washers and longer bolts to fix it yourself. You will need to straighten out the rear upper mount though.
@Neohio how much longer are your bolts and what's the cost. I am looking for a bolt 1/4" longer for the braces that I made for mine.
 
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dswv42

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One of these things is not like the other things. Care to guess which one it is? Yep, it's the Honda Pioneer 1000, which is the only one to use the problematic front upper control arm bracket design with two steel tabs. Even my trusty 2002 Honda Rancher TRX350 ATV uses a standard front upper control arm bracket design with four steel tabs, just like the rest. Why is the Honda Pioneer 1000 different, and why is it having so many problems with front upper control arm bracket failures?

Honda Rancher TRX350 ATV Front Control Arm
Rancher 350


Honda Big Red Front Control Arm
Big Red


Honda Pioneer 500 Front Control Arm
Pioneer 500


Honda Pioneer 700 Front Control Arm

Pioneer 700


Honda Pioneer 1000 Front Control Arm
Pioneer 1000


Honda Talon 1000 X Front Control Arm
Talon 1000 X


Honda Talon 1000 R Front Control Arm
Talon 1000 R
 
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ToddACimer

ToddACimer

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@Neohio how much longer are your bolts and what's the cost. I am looking for a bolt 1/4" longer for the braces that I made for mine.

I think you may be interested in the Polaris bolt I'm using.

M10x1.5x230

And the nut

Take a look at my full write up in my build thread.

 
Cuoutdoors

Cuoutdoors

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I'm in the market for a new SXS machine and have been doing a lot of research as I decide if I want to purchase a new Honda Pioneer 1000. During my research, I've found many problems with the machine, and fortunately most of them can be fixed without too much difficulty. However, the front upper control arm problem is not quite so simple, and I'm surprised that nobody has tried to determine the actual source of the failure, which I firmly believe to be a design flaw.

With all due respect, every fix I've seen is little more than bandaid repair, and while some of them may work, they do little to address the actual root cause of the problem, which is directly related to the design of the front upper control arm mount, and possibly the thickness of the steel tube it's welded to. A permanent fix is possible, but it won't be easy.

If you look closely at the pictures the OP posted, you'll notice that the control arm simply broke away from the bracket, that's obvious, but why? The rut the OP hit in the middle of his hayfield is barely even a pothole, and even if he had been going at a high rate of speed, which he clearly wasn't because there are no skidmarks in the grass, the machine should have been able to easily handle it.

To understand why this failure happened, look at the difference between the design of the front upper and lower control arm mount brackets. Look carefully and you'll see that the front lower mounts use two brackets with a total of four steel tabs, and the front upper mount uses one bracket with a total of two steel tabs. What this means is that the front lower control arm brackets are twice as strong as the front upper control arm brackets. Also, I suspect that the front upper control arm bushings are inadequate to prevent sudden shock loads, which may have caused the steel bracket to suddenly snap, or simply pull apart at the bolt hole.

Note the direction the machine was traveling as it relates to the rut. It appears to be the perfect setup to cause a sudden side to side movement that put tremendous outward pressure on the front upper control arm mount, stressing it to the breaking point. Basically, that side of the machine was down, so gravity and inertia caused inward pressure on the front lower control arm, and outward pressure on the front upper control arm.

I believe that Honda is fully aware of the problem, but issuing a bulletin or frame recall would be very expensive (remember Toyota?), so it's clearly in their best interest to deny warranty coverage, claiming owner abuse was the cause. Don't believe me? Look at the design of the front upper control arm mounts of the Honda Talon. That's right, they use two brackets, with a total of four steel tabs. The Honda Pioneer 1000 and Honda Talon 1000 share a common ancestry, and some parts are even interchangeable, so why change the front upper control arm design if there isn't a problem?

As for the options the OP has at his disposal, I would get a lawyer then sue Honda and the dealership who sold him the machine. Better yet, have the lawsuit escalated to class action status, and make it as public as possible. Also get a few government agencies involved, since it's clearly a major safety concern that could easily get someone killed. If that doesn't get their attention, nothing will.

You must think you're an engineer or something. Good thing you came along to save us. Whew.

Sure, encourage the op to get a lawyer and sue. He will spend another 18k before he even gets someone from honda in a courtroom. Oh then make it class action so they can spend months or years tracking down every owner only to have the lawyers get all the money and the people get pennies. Then who's going to pay for engineers to perform testing and write their professional opinion that the design is imperfect? Let's do all that over $10 in parts and a little welding. Sounds great!👍
 
J

JTW

Guest
I'm in the market for a new SXS machine and have been doing a lot of research as I decide if I want to purchase a new Honda Pioneer 1000. During my research, I've found many problems with the machine, and fortunately most of them can be fixed without too much difficulty. However, the front upper control arm problem is not quite so simple, and I'm surprised that nobody has tried to determine the actual source of the failure, which I firmly believe to be a design flaw.

With all due respect, every fix I've seen is little more than bandaid repair, and while some of them may work, they do little to address the actual root cause of the problem, which is directly related to the design of the front upper control arm mount, and possibly the thickness of the steel tube it's welded to. A permanent fix is possible, but it won't be easy.

If you look closely at the pictures the OP posted, you'll notice that the control arm simply broke away from the bracket, that's obvious, but why? The rut the OP hit in the middle of his hayfield is barely even a pothole, and even if he had been going at a high rate of speed, which he clearly wasn't because there are no skidmarks in the grass, the machine should have been able to easily handle it.

To understand why this failure happened, look at the difference between the design of the front upper and lower control arm mount brackets. Look carefully and you'll see that the front lower mounts use two brackets with a total of four steel tabs, and the front upper mount uses one bracket with a total of two steel tabs. What this means is that the front lower control arm brackets are twice as strong as the front upper control arm brackets. Also, I suspect that the front upper control arm bushings are inadequate to prevent sudden shock loads, which may have caused the steel bracket to suddenly snap, or simply pull apart at the bolt hole.

Note the direction the machine was traveling as it relates to the rut. It appears to be the perfect setup to cause a sudden side to side movement that put tremendous outward pressure on the front upper control arm mount, stressing it to the breaking point. Basically, that side of the machine was down, so gravity and inertia caused inward pressure on the front lower control arm, and outward pressure on the front upper control arm.

I believe that Honda is fully aware of the problem, but issuing a bulletin or frame recall would be very expensive (remember Toyota?), so it's clearly in their best interest to deny warranty coverage, claiming owner abuse was the cause. Don't believe me? Look at the design of the front upper control arm mounts of the Honda Talon. That's right, they use two brackets, with a total of four steel tabs. The Honda Pioneer 1000 and Honda Talon 1000 share a common ancestry, and some parts are even interchangeable, so why change the front upper control arm design if there isn't a problem?

As for the options the OP has at his disposal, I would get a lawyer then sue Honda and the dealership who sold him the machine. Better yet, have the lawsuit escalated to class action status, and make it as public as possible. Also get a few government agencies involved, since it's clearly a major safety concern that could easily get someone killed. If that doesn't get their attention, nothing will.
2 things...

First... Kawasaki KRX!!

Second... Remind me never to have you ride with me in my machine or on any property I own!!
 
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dswv42

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I knew it was only a matter of time before the fanboys would arrive to defend their favorite brand, and I did not come here to have pointless debates and endless circular arguments. Been there, done that. Do you have anything useful to contribute?
 
Cuoutdoors

Cuoutdoors

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I knew it was only a matter of time before the fanboys would arrive to defend their favorite brand, and I did not come here to have pointless debates and endless circular arguments. Been there, done that. Do you have anything useful to contribute?

Lol i didn't defend a brand did I? Go read that again. Sorry about your insecurities. Stick around we'll help you get them all out.
 
Neohio

Neohio

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@Neohio how much longer are your bolts and what's the cost. I am looking for a bolt 1/4" longer for the braces that I made for mine.
I am using a 240mm bolt cut down to 230 mm. Any longer and it could interfere with the steering assembly.
 
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dswv42

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Lol i didn't defend a brand did I? Go read that again. Sorry about your insecurities. Stick around we'll help you get them all out.

I'm interested in attacking the problem, and you're interested in attacking me, which speaks volumes about insecurities. Again, do you have anything useful to contribute, or do you intend to keep showing your ignorance?
 
jp_holy

jp_holy

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STATUS UPDATE

First of all, I appreciate all of the very useful, and mostly positive feedback I have received from everyone.
@dswv42 WOW!! I think if I ever need an expert witness to testify I would give you a call. I definitely will not be filing any lawsuits, and still hope to resolve this matter in the most professional manner as possible. With that said, lets all just get along on here and continue to help one another out; without bringing in opinions of people that we have never met.

So. . .needless to say, I did not hear back from the service manager at Honda Marysville yesterday. After he said he would call me right back with the price. So I decided to write the GM of Honda Marysville, and explain to him that my machine has been sitting in his building for 2 weeks, and I in that time I have received exactly 0 ZERO phone calls from anyone that works there. 10 minutes later, the Service Manager calls me back. He said that they needed to replace the entire frame, and that the price for everything with labor would be $5,800. I asked why is this not being submitted to Honda for their opinion? He told me that they have to fix the machine first, and then send the frame to Honda, and that if Honda decides it is not a manufacturing defect that he would have to eat the cost. AS soon as I dropped the Machine off (June 26) after explaining to him what happened, this same service manager had not even seen the machine yet, tells me "even though its under warranty, it might not be covered"

So I decided at this point, there is nothing more I can do over the phone to change the opinion of this service manager. I told him, fair enough, and that I would be in contact with Honda.

I then sent an email to Honda Customer Service, and was assigned a case # 11421861. I explained the situation in depth and told them that I am a little disappointed at this point. I had a special trip planned with my son that I had to cancel because I have no machine to ride. I live in a community that Honda Built! I have driven, and rode Honda my entire life. My father retired from Honda of America in Marysville. When I was a Marine The 1st thing I bought, after returning from fighting in Iraq, was a Honda Motorcycle! It is all that I looked forward to! I have owned or driven almost every Honda vehicle under the sun! This company has been good to my family & my community. That is why I continue to buy Honda. That is why I am reaching out in this message to, hopefully, contact someone that can actually help me out!!

I am yet to hear anything from Honda but going to call them shortly after this.

Again, all comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. I am so glad I joined this forum group. I am thinking about the longer bolt/ washer/ beef up mount fabrication idea. Just scared that I would void the warranty & protection plan I bought. But at this point, what good is it anyway?? lol.

I will keep you all posted in the meantime. Once I get a better idea of the time frame or if Honda is going to cover this I am going to make a decision on picking up the machine. I'm 1/2 scared to let Honda Marysville do the work, even if Honda covers it. One of the reasons I did not go to this dealer in the 1st place before I bought the machine is because they treat everyone like this. The car dealership & motorsports are right beside one another right in Honda country. Where everyone either works at Honda of America Mfg. or knows someone that does. They are the biggest around, and know that people are going to buy vehicles there strictly out of convenience. Regardless of how they actually treat you or are willing to deal with you (which is pretty rare).

When I drove to Southern Honda in Tennessee the General Manager was one of the 1st to introduce himself to me and my son. Actually talked to us, and showed us his employees cleaning my machine and putting brand new rims & tires on it. I asked him if he would throw in the original set of rims & tires and he said "sure, no problem"!! Went out of his way to see if he had any accessories I wanted, in stock to be put on before I drove home to Ohio. This would NEVER happen at Honda Marysville. Unless, of course, you email the General Manager & actually hold him accountable for his poor sales & service staff. Anyways, I'm obviously rambling at this point and that is not doing anything to get my machine back in service! I'll keep you all posted! Thanks again.
 
Cuoutdoors

Cuoutdoors

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I'm interested in attacking the problem, and you're interested in attacking me, which speaks volumes about insecurities. Again, do you have anything useful to contribute, or do you intend to keep showing your ignorance?

Feel free to read my thousands of posts and decide for yourself buddy. I didn't attack you personally yet you call me ignorant...🤔 i contributed multiple times to the discussion but you clearly took offense that I thought getting a lawer was a bad idea and wouldn't solve the problem. Still no personal attacks were made by me. Go read my posts again.
 
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