P1000 burnt clutches up with less than 400 miles

[CumminsPusher]

Both of you guys would be better at the specifics then i and could tell me to F off because I'm off base and I'd listen but I've read a lot and seen a lot and this is all that makes sense to me. I've thought this from about a month of owning my new one just trying to be quiet I guess. I swear these two were totally different machines and it's not like I'm new on the deal.
My problem is until I know how to fix the problem I'll either be babying things or going through clutches


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[Admin]

 

[Delton]

Owning 2 totally different acting machines is no surprise to me. Working off oil pressure, there's alot that can be different. Any casting irregularities in the parts will affect oil pressure which would affect clutch engagement.

 

[AKRider]

Owning 2 totally different acting machines is no surprise to me. Working off oil pressure, there's alot that can be different. Any casting irregularities in the parts will affect oil pressure which would affect clutch engagement.

So, Honda is now a third world production facility with crappy QC? If I test drive 2 Accords that are the same model year with the same specs, I'm going to notice a difference in how they perform? Not buying it. Then again, maybe their QC on these machines does suck, or its a poor design.

 

[moparornocar]

I'm kind of like @Delton I don't ease about either, I've never stalled mine out either. Idk what the difference is, I can take off in gravel and at WOT it will kick the back end loose through the 4th gear shift. Solid as a rock. Admittedly, mist of my miles are by far tamer than yours CP, and my drive line is 100% stock.

 

[AKRider]

I'm kind of like @Delton I don't ease about either, I've never stalled mine out either. Idk what the difference is, I can take off in gravel and at WOT it will kick the back end loose through the 4th gear shift. Solid as a rock. Admittedly, mist of my miles are by far tamer than yours CP, and my drive line is 100% stock.

That's kinda my point. They shouldn't be different. They should all perform exactly the same.

 

[CumminsPusher]

I'm kind of like @Delton I don't ease about either, I've never stalled mine out either. Idk what the difference is, I can take off in gravel and at WOT it will kick the back end loose through the 4th gear shift. Solid as a rock. Admittedly, mist of my miles are by far tamer than yours CP, and my drive line is 100% stock.

I may be hard yes but the previous would shift hard and spin if you wanted to just like your saying. This one is no where near that way. Has never been. It's like there's just a small delay like you let the clutch out slowly. It felt like a soft clutch from day one. I eased it for the most part and will admit there were a couple times I was harder on it then normal but it was always soft. Since ive had problems I've even taken to paddle shifting most of the time (partially so it's not shifting so much) and even get out of throttle while I do then hard back on it. I know that's not how to drive but if you stand on it through the shift it just doesn't lock quick so I know it'll take it out sooner. I don't let new people drive it and my friends are scared.
I guess what really made me upset is looking at the pics of last Xmas in the red one we were beating the hell out of it though the snow up hill, go a few feet backup hit it again for hours and hours plowing several feet of snow you've seen the pics it was hell on a machine! And brand new to boot. We towed stuff pulled cars from ditches everything even the wheelies (which this one can't do at all and it made it 1500 miles after that solid as a rock. Even my wife realizes the difference between the two she's never liked the feel of this one.
People say, well my clutch feels great always has if I can do this in mine so can you it's not a problem well ya I get it I had one of those and use to say that. Others say, I simply backed up a hill and it went out, ya I have one and now say that. It's not the clutches! And it's not always the driver. Even if it was the driver with Honda it's not suppose to be a problem, never has been but now is you shouldn't have to give someone instructions on how to use the auto on a Honda!
We were planning on heading to our friends this Xmas but it's pretty heavy snow and 30 miles in well were not going because we can't trust it, it won't make it. I'd be doing a field swap. Our previous unit I'd do that all day long.
I'd just like to know how to fix it. I've got lots of time and money invested in mine much more then people realize, especially if you coinsider everything I lost in the other one.
Not even complaining here! Just stating absolute facts. And I'd love to know what's being done to fix this so I can.

 

[AKRider]

I may be hard yes but the previous would shift hard and spin if you wanted to just like your saying. This one is no where near that way. Has never been. It's like there's just a small delay like you let the clutch out slowly. It felt like a soft clutch from day one. I eased it for the most part and will admit there were a couple times I was harder on it then normal but it was always soft. Since ive had problems I've even taken to paddle shifting most of the time (partially so it's not shifting so much) and even get out of throttle while I do then hard back on it. I know that's not how to drive but if you stand on it through the shift it just doesn't lock quick so I know it'll take it out sooner. I don't let new people drive it and my friends are scared.
I guess what really made me upset is looking at the pics of last Xmas in the red one we were beating the hell out of it though the snow up hill, go a few feet backup hit it again for hours and hours plowing several feet of snow you've seen the pics it was hell on a machine! And brand new to boot. We towed stuff pulled cars from ditches everything even the wheelies (which this one can't do at all and it made it 1500 miles after that solid as a rock. Even my wife realizes the difference between the two she's never liked the feel of this one.
People say, well my clutch feels great always has if I can do this in mine so can you it's not a problem well ya I get it I had one of those and use to say that. Others say, I simply backed up a hill and it went out, ya I have one and now say that. It's not the clutches! And it's not always the driver. Even if it was the driver with Honda it's not suppose to be a problem, never has been but now is you shouldn't have to give someone instructions on how to use the auto on a Honda!
We were planning on heading to our friends this Xmas but it's pretty heavy snow and 30 miles in well were not going because we can't trust it, it won't make it. I'd be doing a field swap. Our previous unit I'd do that all day long.
I'd just like to know how to fix it. I've got lots of time and money invested in mine much more then people realize, especially if you coinsider everything I lost in the other one.
Not even complaining here! Just stating absolute facts. And I'd love to know what's being done to fix this so I can.

Can I triple like this? Like I've been saying, they should all perform exactly the same.

I honestly don't really know if I have a beast or a lemon. I've been riding, pulling, climbing, towing... and a few other things... all in manual. I don't mind. I love the power and the mount goat climbing ability. If the clutches burn up, you've given me the confidence to replace them.

I've done most of the things everyone, including myself now, suggest not to do. Things I would have never given a second thought to doing with a Honda I now think about.

Screw it. I'm going to ride and drive the way I need and want to. Throw caution to the wind and have fun.

 

[CumminsPusher]

Can I triple like this? Like I've been saying, they should all perform exactly the same.

I honestly don't really know if I have a beast or a lemon. I've been riding, pulling, climbing, towing... and a few other things... all in manual. I don't mind. I love the power and the mount goat climbing ability. If the clutches burn up, you've given me the confidence to replace them.

I've done most of the things everyone, including myself now, suggest not to do. Things I would have never given a second thought to doing with a Honda I now think about.

Screw it. I'm going to ride and drive the way I need and want to. Throw caution to the wind and have fun.

If you haven't had problems by now you're probably good buddy. Im not telling everyone to baby it. I'm still giving it hell too in most ways I always will. I love everything you just mentioned but I'm paying attention all the time and there are many things I won't do anymore just like next weekend. I'm still gunna drive it though it's not parked! I love the machine!


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[Delton]

So, Honda is now a third world production facility with crappy QC? If I test drive 2 Accords that are the same model year with the same specs, I'm going to notice a difference in how they perform? Not buying it. Then again, maybe their QC on these machines does suck, or its a poor design.

Just throwing that out there as a possibility. 2 cars will probably drive the same but I have noticed different shift patterns between 2 of the same model trucks. Clutches are extremely sensitive creatures. Are y'all familiar with a slider clutch used on the faster wheelie bar bikes? For clutch engagement/disengagement they use a centrifugal device attached to outer hub of clutch. It's adjustable with very tiny weights on the end of arms that extend when rpm rises. Launch rpm is determined by how much weight is on the arms. I've seen as much as a gram change launch by almost 500rpms. Point is, doesn't take much at all to affect how a machine takes off. And these are controlled by oil pressure that varies from 10psi to around 80 on some bikes (never put a gauge on one of these). So there is alot of room for something to go wrong.
@AKRider im just taking stabs in the dark here man. And I'm open to any idea/suggestion. I understand clutch physics and wet clutches. But pretty lost when it comes to this setup. My clutch could be next to fail or may last another 5 yrs. My point in all this I guess is I sure hope there's guys at Honda that are having the same conversation we are. My official stand was there's nothing wrong with this clutch design. But I try to keep an open mind. Sorry for such long post. Haven't had my coffee yet.

 

[Delton]

Can I triple like this? Like I've been saying, they should all perform exactly the same.

I honestly don't really know if I have a beast or a lemon. I've been riding, pulling, climbing, towing... and a few other things... all in manual. I don't mind. I love the power and the mount goat climbing ability. If the clutches burn up, you've given me the confidence to replace them.

I've done most of the things everyone, including myself now, suggest not to do. Things I would have never given a second thought to doing with a Honda I now think about.

Screw it. I'm going to ride and drive the way I need and want to. Throw caution to the wind and have fun.

Your last 2 sentences should be someone's Sig on here!! Exactly how I drive mine. Like it's a 30 yr old proven design that won't fail. If it does, it does. I replaced clutch packs in my race bike at least twice a year. I'll figure this one out (with CPs how to lol). Drive it without worry.

 

[Manwell]

I've been in a few Honda manufacturing plants and have seen their quality first hand at those facilities and with ownership of both cars and motorcycles, even a lawnmower and pressure washer motors. These forums represent a very small microcosm of the overall population of these machines. I'm not here stating Honda perfection and claiming that they don't have issues, but I'm betting that if it is significant thay are working on it. It would be interesting to see a poll on this site of people who have had problems with their clutches... Of those how many have made drivetrain modifications. I go back to the OEM modification issue again, based on my real world experience of what people do and then how shocked they are that yes indeed, you can snap a 12" diameter 4140 steel shaft!! LOL I don't have enough miles or seat time on this machine to comment on my first hand experience behind the wheel! Damn thing might crap out and strand my on Mary's Ridge next Monday!!

 

[moparornocar]

I may be hard yes but the previous would shift hard and spin if you wanted to just like your saying. This one is no where near that way. Has never been. It's like there's just a small delay like you let the clutch out slowly. It felt like a soft clutch from day one. I eased it for the most part and will admit there were a couple times I was harder on it then normal but it was always soft. Since ive had problems I've even taken to paddle shifting most of the time (partially so it's not shifting so much) and even get out of throttle while I do then hard back on it. I know that's not how to drive but if you stand on it through the shift it just doesn't lock quick so I know it'll take it out sooner. I don't let new people drive it and my friends are scared.
I guess what really made me upset is looking at the pics of last Xmas in the red one we were beating the hell out of it though the snow up hill, go a few feet backup hit it again for hours and hours plowing several feet of snow you've seen the pics it was hell on a machine! And brand new to boot. We towed stuff pulled cars from ditches everything even the wheelies (which this one can't do at all and it made it 1500 miles after that solid as a rock. Even my wife realizes the difference between the two she's never liked the feel of this one.
People say, well my clutch feels great always has if I can do this in mine so can you it's not a problem well ya I get it I had one of those and use to say that. Others say, I simply backed up a hill and it went out, ya I have one and now say that. It's not the clutches! And it's not always the driver. Even if it was the driver with Honda it's not suppose to be a problem, never has been but now is you shouldn't have to give someone instructions on how to use the auto on a Honda!
We were planning on heading to our friends this Xmas but it's pretty heavy snow and 30 miles in well were not going because we can't trust it, it won't make it. I'd be doing a field swap. Our previous unit I'd do that all day long.
I'd just like to know how to fix it. I've got lots of time and money invested in mine much more then people realize, especially if you coinsider everything I lost in the other one.
Not even complaining here! Just stating absolute facts. And I'd love to know what's being done to fix this so I can.

Is it something noticeable enough that a competent Honda tech would notice it? Maybe it could be a warranty issue? Maybe they have to replace the whole motor/trans assembly? Just throwing jello at the wall here.

 

[Delton]

I'm NOT faulting Hondas QC!!!!!! Seriously y'all? Lol. Please don't assume I was. If I thought like that I wouldn't have that expensive playtoy sitting in my shop. Period. Totally missed the point. I probably worded it wrong.

 

[Delton]

Sometimes I jabber too much (shocking right?) And sometimes long posts don't always get read completely. Been guilty of that myself. I'll try and keep it short. I'm a Honda can through and through. I ran a 900 cbr competitively in 5.90 index class for years. Closest engine size was 1200cc kawis. I bleed big red all day long just as CP does.

 

[1BadDart]

I need to look at my service manual to see if there is a port for a manual oil pressure gauge. It would be interesting to see what the oil pressure is on the rigs that shift soft or the clutches feel funny versus the ones that shift hard and engage fine. There is a check/bypass valve that controls the oil pressure, assuming the pump has the capacity to over come all the leaks built into the system.

That being said from what I remember when i did glance through the service manual it appeared that there were three sets of pump gears that ran off the same shaft. It could've been two with one exploded view though. This has me wondering if the clutch/transmission has it's own pump separate from the engine but on a common (driven) shaft.

Another question for my dealer today.

 

[Delton]

It'd sure be nice if honda has a brain trust asking the same questions we are. It's called continuous improvement. And it shows a manufacturer gives a crap about its customers. The guys that make their BMW payments every month. Just sayin

 

[snuffnwhisky]

There's a double gear pump to the right of the clutch. Probably for the clutch only. Another single pump to the bottom left. Automatic transmission pumps usually put out 150+ psi.

 

[Delton]

I need to look at my service manual to see if there is a port for a manual oil pressure gauge. It would be interesting to see what the oil pressure is on the rigs that shift soft or the clutches feel funny versus the ones that shift hard and engage fine. There is a check/bypass valve that controls the oil pressure, assuming the pump has the capacity to over come all the leaks built into the system.

That being said from what I remember when i did glance through the service manual it appeared that there were three sets of pump gears that ran off the same shaft. It could've been two with one exploded view though. This has me wondering if the clutch/transmission has it's own pump separate from the engine but on a common (driven) shaft.

Another question for my dealer today.

Rotor type oil pumps make a crap ton of pressure. One would be plenty for any hydraulic device. Air-cooled VW motors used same style. First block I had machined to make it full flow, I installed a normal oil filter on it. It literally blew the filter off its threads hard enough to dent my rear fender lol. But the pressure is obviously rpm dependent. Is the varying pressure causing problems?? So many questions. What we need is answers lol

 

[CumminsPusher]

It'd sure be nice if honda has a brain trust asking the same questions we are. It's called continuous improvement. And it shows a manufacturer gives a crap about its customers. The guys that make their BMW payments every month. Just sayin

I'm absolutely positive on this. They can't possibly see all machines as a whole to test...it shifts send it. It's the first such thing to come out with a sxs. Maybe it's seen as a percentage deal though. If only said numbers of machines have a problem then that could be fixed cheaper then to be assured all go flawless. Kind of like theft in a business it's cheaper to allow some theft and figure that into the overall price then to stop it completely and suffer that cost.


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[1BadDart]

Rotor type oil pumps make a crap ton of pressure. One would be plenty for any hydraulic device. Air-cooled VW motors used same style. First block I had machined to make it full flow, I installed a normal oil filter on it. It literally blew the filter off its threads hard enough to dent my rear fender lol. But the pressure is obviously rpm dependent. Is the varying pressure causing problems?? So many questions. What we need is answers lol

All true and as you well know there are several variables (in pressure) involved also. Something as simple as a piece metal left from machining can stick a bypass valve open enough to cause a pressure drop.

That's why I think it would be interesting to see the oil pressure on different machines. Of course there are variables involved there too like temperature, rpm and oil viscosity.