Changed the heim joints in the L&W radius rods, again

[PhilCod]

My L&W lowers are getting loose 1700miles. One end is real bad. Uppers seem tight still, guessing its because the lower sees more mud, water and abuse.

You and I certainly ride in the same areas and kind of trail conditions. So I'm glad to hear you are getting 1700 miles on yours. I must have an issue beyond just the heim joints.

 

[Admin]

 

[WillyBill]

i hear that shock therapy uses 3/4" heims on all their radius rods. Maybe call them and ask.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

i hear that shock therapy uses 3/4" heims on all their radius rods. Maybe call them and ask.

I know Raceco uses 3/4" heims on their radius rod kits and they take a full season of race abuse on my Talon without issue but they are not a high clearance design so it's a moot point.

 

[HondaTech]

I know Raceco uses 3/4" heims on their radius rod kits and they take a full season of race abuse on my Talon without issue but they are not a high clearance design so it's a moot point.

High clearance is moot, the axle and frame are just gonna get hit instead.

Not saying the stock ones are great, but high clearance makes no sense to me.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

High clearance is moot, the axle and frame are just gonna get hit instead.

Not saying the stock ones are great, but high clearance makes no sense to me.

In some instances they are a benefit but for most of us, normal style straight radius rods and knowing how to avoid trail obstacles that catch the arms would work just as well. 😆

 

[CID]

Looks like they’ll help to me.

 

[Lil_Steve]

Looks like they’ll help to me.

View attachment 301959

Straight one's would have done me no good here.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Straight one's would have done me no good here.

View attachment 301989

That is the picture I was thinking of when I said it benefits some.

 

[PhilCod]

Update on this issue. I took the Talon in for a fuel pump recall and asked them to check into this issue. It turns out the heim joint in the trailing arm where it connects up front has play in it. But guess what? You can't replace the heim joint, you have to replace the whole trailing arm! Nice, real nice. $480 worth of nice. SuperATV makes aftermarket trailing arms for the R, but not the X. I can't seem to find aftermarket trailing arms, so I guess I'll go with replacing it with the Honda one.
I did ask the tech if he had seen this issue before and he said no. So maybe it's an isolated case.

 

[HondaTech]

Update on this issue. I took the Talon in for a fuel pump recall and asked them to check into this issue. It turns out the heim joint in the trailing arm where it connects up front has play in it. But guess what? You can't replace the heim joint, you have to replace the whole trailing arm! Nice, real nice. $480 worth of nice. SuperATV makes aftermarket trailing arms for the R, but not the X. I can't seem to find aftermarket trailing arms, so I guess I'll go with replacing it with the Honda one.
I did ask the tech if he had seen this issue before and he said no. So maybe it's an isolated case.

The joint up front (under the seat) is not a heim, it has bushings. They are replaceable from Honda, as is the lower "balljoint" in the rear of the arm on the knuckle.

Jsport sells "braced" oem style trailing arms as well.

Are they referring to the upper link arm bushings instead? Because those arent replaceable. If thats what you need maybe go with Jsport arms instead, they have replaceable joints.

Also check the hole in the frame where the front trailing arm mounts to. Ive seen sevaral loose and wear the hole out.

RaceCo has braces for this, if so.

 

[PaulF]

The joint up front (under the seat) is not a heim, it has bushings. They are replaceable from Honda, as is the lower "balljoint" in the rear of the arm on the knuckle.

Jsport sells "braced" oem style trailing arms as well.

Are they referring to the upper link arm bushings instead? Because those arent replaceable. If thats what you need maybe go with Jsport arms instead, they have replaceable joints.

Also check the hole in the frame where the front trailing arm mounts to. Ive seen sevaral loose and wear the hole out.

RaceCo has braces for this, if so.

None of that is pertinent, Phil has an X model. The front Heim (actually called a Spherical Plain Bearing) is not available.

 

[HondaTech]

None of that is pertinent, Phil has an X model. The front Heim (actually called a Spherical Plain Bearing) is not available.

Im a complete idiot, didnt even think about the X front pivot being different

 

[PhilCod]

Thanks for the input from both. Yea it's odd that bearing is not replaceable. I guess I go with a new stock trailing arm and call it a day.

 

[Dankathy]

Have no experience with this, but is it possible to replace these with an industry standard part? If the arm has to be replaced anyway, maybe try to remove the failed joint somewhat intact and take it to a local bearing supply and ask them to match it up?

 

[PaulF]

Have no experience with this, but is it possible to replace these with an industry standard part? If the arm has to be replaced anyway, maybe try to remove the failed joint somewhat intact and take it to a local bearing supply and ask them to match it up?

I looked into it when building my own radius rods, they are not industry standard sizes. They must be custom manufactured for Honda.

 

[PhilCod]

I am going to have them replace it with a stock one. But I'll take the old part and see if I can have one of the local race/machine shops remove the bearing/bushing, and replace it with one that matches it. Or possibly make one. Living outside of Indianapolis has it's benefits. There are lots of race shops around with the Indy 500 being here along with other racing. Maybe I'll find a way for all of us to replace that part and make it simple for everyone. But I'm not going to get too overconfident on that!
Thanks to all for the input

 

[Montecresto]

Maybe I'll find a way for all of us to replace that part and make it simple for everyone.

Oh that would be nice….👍

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I looked into it when building my own radius rods, they are not industry standard sizes. They must be custom manufactured for Honda.

The misalignment spacers needed to fit the frame width and metric bolt sizes are the only real issue. I bet a company that already makes spacers for heim joints, like Ruff Stuff or Ballistic Fabrication would have no problem changing up one of their cnc programs and whipping out batches of those misalignment spacers. Hell, I bet @RB3offroad could make them if there is enough demand. Once you have those spacers in hand the rest of the radius rod parts could be sourced on the cheap from places like Speedway Motors or Smileys Racing.

 

[PaulF]

The misalignment spacers needed to fit the frame width and metric bolt sizes are the only real issue. I bet a company that already makes spacers for heim joints, like Ruff Stuff or Ballistic Fabrication would have no problem changing up one of their cnc programs and whipping out batches of those misalignment spacers. Hell, I bet @RB3offroad could make them if there is enough demand. Once you have those spacers in hand the rest of the radius rod parts could be sourced on the cheap from places like Speedway Motors or Smileys Racing.

I have already done the leg work and it is not that simple (and it is not a metric problem either). First off, they are not Heim joints, they are "Spherical Plain Bearings". Similar but not the same.

Next, you are forgetting that these joints press into the rods and arms, held in by a snap ring and are lubed/sealed. There are plenty of metric joints available (actually more metric than inch available) but the outer diameter, outer width, inner diameter, overall width combinations that Honda special ordered are not available off the shelf (not even close). The outer press fit is 35mm X 14mm wide and that is not a standard size (35mm X 12mm is standard). Then there is the 15mm bolt hole on the outer Radius Rods, That is not a normal size and they all skip from 14 to 16 mm. Honda probably did all this on purpose.

To "adapt" an off the shelf bearing, you would first need to make the outer 35X14. This can be done but if you use something smaller (say 30X12) and adapt it up, you lose strength because the races get smaller. Only viable solution is to use a 35X12 and shim it 2mm (1mm on each side or offset the bearing by 1mm). 1mm shims may not be ideal so offset the bearing and offset the bolt spacers.

Next you have to downsize and widen the center hole. A 35mm outer has a 20mm hole (in most cases) and only 16 or 20mm wide so you would need to take a 20X20 inner and make it 12X35 (and 15X35 of the outer radius rods). If you end up offsetting the bearing by 1mm, then you might consider offsetting the spacers too (or maybe not).

Currently mocking these parts on my 3D printer. If they work, I will send specs over to a machine shop.

 

[PaulF]

I have already done the leg work and it is not that simple (and it is not a metric problem either). First off, they are not Heim joints, they are "Spherical Plain Bearings". Similar but not the same.

Next, you are forgetting that these joints press into the rods and arms, held in by a snap ring and are lubed/sealed. There are plenty of metric joints available (actually more metric than inch available) but the outer diameter, outer width, inner diameter, overall width combinations that Honda special ordered are not available off the shelf (not even close). The outer press fit is 35mm X 14mm wide and that is not a standard size (35mm X 12mm is standard). Then there is the 15mm bolt hole on the outer Radius Rods, That is not a normal size and they all skip from 14 to 16 mm. Honda probably did all this on purpose.

To "adapt" an off the shelf bearing, you would first need to make the outer 35X14. This can be done but if you use something smaller (say 30X12) and adapt it up, you lose strength because the races get smaller. Only viable solution is to use a 35X12 and shim it 2mm (1mm on each side or offset the bearing by 1mm). 1mm shims may not be ideal so offset the bearing and offset the bolt spacers.

Next you have to downsize and widen the center hole. A 35mm outer has a 20mm hole (in most cases) and only 16 or 20mm wide so you would need to take a 20X20 inner and make it 12X35 (and 15X35 of the outer radius rods). If you end up offsetting the bearing by 1mm, then you might consider offsetting the spacers too (or maybe not).

Currently mocking these parts on my 3D printer. If they work, I will send specs over to a machine shop.

And one more thing I forgot to mention. The Honda joints have and extra dust boot that you cannot get on any other joint. Have not found a way to do this either and losing this protection might be a deal killer unless there is a way to replicate this boot...