Honda Pioneer (and Big Red) power and torque

[DG Rider]

...yes, it did lack power at the highest altitudes, but it had enough bottom end torque that it made it up anything I needed it to.

And that's all you could ask. Sounds like Manly Bugs' machine isn't doing that.

I did some calculations last night, and using the formula for elevation power loss ( HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000 ) with the CARB sheet given spec of 36ish HP, the Pioneer would lose approx 9 HP at 9-10000 feet. 27HP at the crank. A dog, but not like his machine.

I'm going to ramble for a minute, and its not directed at anyone in particular...

If there is one area of purchase that concerns me with the Pioneer, its power. Well...not actual power, but the varying reports owners give of how good or bad this drivetrain is at pulling. Some say it will pull a house, while at the same time you get the odd report of these machines bogging down at the drop of the hat.
The same thing happened to the Rincon when it came out..and to a lesser extent, the big red ( due mainly to limited numbers ). Early Rincons had a problem with some o-rings that weren't installed properly and low oil pressure resulted. This lead to the Rincon receiving a mostly undeserved reputation.

Then there was the oil TSB. The Rincon/Big Red/Pioneer transmission is unlike any other ATV/SxS...and in reality, unlike anything. Yes, its just like an automotive auto, but car trannys don't use engine oil for lubrication. They use much thinner fluid. I think its clear that Honda ideally would like to use something thinner, but can't in this situation. And you get the "bogging", "slipping" and "sluggishness" that owners report in really cold weather before the machine is warmed up.

The point of all this is that this drive train is uber sensitive to oil, oil pressure and viscosity, and the symptoms are not always what you'd think they would be. MB and i talked on another thread, so i know he is still using stock oil and tires, but if something were slightly amiss and the pressure was a little low...well, that could be the reason. Maybe a sensor is biased, but not enough to trip a code? I would b**** at my dealer until he checked all this out...and maybe try another unit to see how it runs.
If these tests proved to be ok, my one last shot would to be to try thinner oil ( i am of the opinion that these machines should always use the thinnest oil possible for a temp ). Maybe 0-30 or even 0-20...if a motorcycle oil can be found in that weight, and see what it does. If you want to know why this would make a difference, Google converter flash RPM and tranny fluid types. The answer will be on a drag racing forum.

If it still displays this behavior, I'd trade the thing and send Honda a nasty letter. No way should this machine not be able to pull itself under any reasonable circumstances. Snow at 9000 feet is reasonable for an off-road vehicle, and I've never had an ATV that didn't run out of traction ( in lower gears ) before it ran out of power.

Posts like Manly bugs concern me. I already have a deposit down, so i am dedicated..and i think there are probably explanations for them because, if there weren't, that would mean that Honda simply dropped the ball here...something it rarely does. I admit i will have a hard time believing that until i see it for myself..but the number of "i pulled a house" posts make me think that something is just amiss.

I'm through ranting now.

 

[Admin]

 

[fishin2Dmax]

DG Rider,
I can understand the frustration with differences in owner reports, but rest assured there is no need for concern on your pending purchase. A Pioneer operating to specification (normally functioning) will have enough power for almost every application; although not a speed demon, it has good torque.

Not that it matters, but the loss of power at higher altitude is not a linear equation; above 7500' a normally aspirated engine can lose almost 5% power for every thousand feet of elevation (depending on air temp and humidity). Altitude notwithstanding, I've found the Pioneer has enough power to meet all of the most demanding of applications. You bring up a very good point that could also be affecting power transfer (auto tranny sensitivity to oil viscosity). I wonder if the reported "power" issues are a combination of altitude and very low temps that could change the tranny oil viscosity and the overall power transfer of the tranny? This is something that the dealers should be addressing for their customers (PCM programming, and tranny oil viscosity based on normal operating altitude and temp range). As much as Honda has done their homework on the Pioneer before releasing it, there will no doubt be additional improvement discoveries and TSB updates - typical in a first model year.

 

[PioneerDuner1]

I know this a Pioneer site, but I;m trying to decide between it and the Commander. Performance numbers are more impressive for the http://www.sbsparts.com/can-am-commander Commander, and parts and accessories are more readily available, but I'd like the convenience of the second row seat. Any ideas?

 

[DG Rider]

Not that it matters, but the loss of power at higher altitude is not a linear equation

Yep. I just didn't want to link someone to a confusing online calculator. It was meant as a ball-park figure...an example really, not gospel.

I know this a Pioneer site, but I;m trying to decide between it and the Commander. Performance numbers are more impressive for the [http://www.sbsparts.com/can-am-commander/Commander, and parts and accessories [url]are more readily available, bu...capable SxS remains the Rhino, warts and all.

 

[fishin2Dmax]

My friend has a Commander and it is really nice - I have nothing but good to say about it. However, I know he paid a whole lot more than I did for my Pioneer. He drove my Pioneer at our last outing and he loved it. I noticed differences in the way they handle (not good or bad), but just different. I do know this, he is very envious of my Pioneer's convertible rear seat configurations. I had a Polaris RZR prior to the Pioneer and it too was very different in ride and handling. You should consider how you plan to use your UTV. For me, I needed the rear configurable seating and shorter wheel base the Pioneer offered. Also, Honda has a long standing reputation for durability, reliability, quality and high resale value. Past ATV / UTV reviews of the Commander knocked it for poor handling, but the new 2013 /14's are supposed to be much better; the new Maverick looks AWESOME, but it's very pricey! Again, it comes down to what you need and want in a UTV, within a price point you can afford. Good luck in your decision.

 

[Rod]

As someone that lives and plays in higher altitudes of the Rockies, there is no question there is significant power loss as a result of (less Oxygen) high altitude in most engines. From snowmobiles, ATV's to boat motors, they all struggle in the rarefied air. My former RZR had the exact same issue when we were on high mountain trails 8500' to 10,500' or higher. Yes, more CC's would help, but the only thing I know that really helps to compensate for high altitude is a turbo. However, turbo's can create reliability issues and are very expensive. I have taken my P-4 to the top of mountains, and yes, it did lack power at the highest altitudes, but it had enough bottom end torque that it made it up anything I needed it to. For 95% of the owners that won't be riding above 9000', on a regular basis, the Pioneer power plant is just fine. For those riding at high altitude and needing a UTV for hard work and steep challenging terrain, the Polaris 900 XP or 1000 CanAm will offer more deliverable power at the higher altitudes. Then again, they cost $3000 to $4000 more (equally equipped).

I have also noticed my P 4 is getting a little more powerful as it breaks in; not by much, but it does seem to pull a little quicker than when I first got it.

HI, fishin2Dmax. Thank you for the input. Yours is another sound and dispassionate advice. My main use would be between 5000 and 6000 ft, but the more difficult, steep, clayish hills are at 6000 ft or higher. The aim is to ride up to around 9000. So, I’m still doubtful about the Pioneer capacity to climb there with heavy loads.

 

[Rod]

...yes, it did lack power at the highest altitudes, but it had enough bottom end torque that it made it up anything I needed it to.

And that's all you could ask. Sounds like Manly Bugs' machine isn't doing that.

I did some calculations last night, and using the formula for elevation power loss ( HP Loss = (elevation x 0.03 x horsepower @ sea level)/1000 ) with the CARB sheet given spec of 36ish HP, the Pioneer would lose approx 9 HP at 9-10000 feet. 27HP at the crank. A dog, but not like his machine.

I'm going to ramble for a minute, and its not directed at anyone in particular...

If there is one area of purchase that concerns me with the Pioneer, its power. Well...not actual power, but the varying reports owners give of how good or bad this drivetrain is at pulling. Some say it will pull a house, while at the same time you get the odd report of these machines bogging down at the drop of the hat.
The same thing happened to the Rincon when it came out..and to a lesser extent, the big red ( due mainly to limited numbers ). Early Rincons had a problem with some o-rings that weren't installed properly and low oil pressure resulted. This lead to the Rincon receiving a mostly undeserved reputation.

Then there was the oil TSB. The Rincon/Big Red/Pioneer transmission is unlike any other ATV/SxS...and in reality, unlike anything. Yes, its just like an automotive auto, but car trannys don't use engine oil for lubrication. They use much thinner fluid. I think its clear that Honda ideally would like to use something thinner, but can't in this situation. And you get the "bogging", "slipping" and "sluggishness" that owners report in really cold weather before the machine is warmed up.

The point of all this is that this drive train is uber sensitive to oil, oil pressure and viscosity, and the symptoms are not always what you'd think they would be. MB and i talked on another thread, so i know he is still using stock oil and tires, but if something were slightly amiss and the pressure was a little low...well, that could be the reason. Maybe a sensor is biased, but not enough to trip a code? I would b**** at my dealer until he checked all this out...and maybe try another unit to see how it runs.
If these tests proved to be ok, my one last shot would to be to try thinner oil ( i am of the opinion that these machines should always use the thinnest oil possible for a temp ). Maybe 0-30 or even 0-20...if a motorcycle oil can be found in that weight, and see what it does. If you want to know why this would make a difference, Google converter flash RPM and tranny fluid types. The answer will be on a drag racing forum.

If it still displays this behavior, I'd trade the thing and send Honda a nasty letter. No way should this machine not be able to pull itself under any reasonable circumstances. Snow at 9000 feet is reasonable for an off-road vehicle, and I've never had an ATV that didn't run out of traction ( in lower gears ) before it ran out of power.

Posts like Manly bugs concern me. I already have a deposit down, so i am dedicated..and i think there are probably explanations for them because, if there weren't, that would mean that Honda simply dropped the ball here...something it rarely does. I admit i will have a hard time believing that until i see it for myself..but the number of "i pulled a house" posts make me think that something is just amiss.

I'm through ranting now.

Hi, DG Rider. What a good post! Thanks for all that information.

 

[binfordw]

I too wonder whats going on with the "lack of power" posts. On my first trail run, I climbed some hills that were as steep as my comfort zone would allow, with 4 ppl, and my speed was limited by the terrain, not the engine. I limited my speed to prevent tires jumping over ruts/roots and rocks, but was still able to accelerate sharply when I felt it was safe towards the top. It has zero trouble carrying 4 ppl on a steep enough hill to be disastrous if one would run out of traction or have to stop.

Also, my recent towing test today finalized my opinion on the power issue (as if it wasn't already) The ease it moved such a large load, and quickness that it accelerated, was very impressive to me. The 700 Rincon must be one hell of a powerful 4 wheeler.

This being said- My dealer had one of the first 700-4's they sold back for its service, and the owner had complained about power issues. Namely, it seemed to be starving for oil on steep climbs.

 

[DG Rider]

This being said- My dealer had one of the first 700-4's they sold back for its service, and the owner had complained about power issues. Namely, it seemed to be starving for oil on steep climbs.

If i remember, the Rincon guys went through that one as well. Keep it full of oil. Some guys even run it slightly over full to keep it from starving.

If it turns out to be something else, let us know.

 

[bbdo]

we went up to 10,500 feet yesterday with three adults and two very small kids. no problem at all - about 6-12" of snow, none of it fresh tracks. power all the way, making the 4wd built up trucks look a little foolish compared to us just trucking up the same hill definitely no power issues, and this was the third time we rode at this location and the first with this much snow - just above central city colorado. No adult was much below 200lbs. could not be happier!

 

[duwops]

Just want to add a thought. Releasing a limited number of production is a marketing plan to create demand, thus contributing to more demand and sales. It is about Money

 

[Redrider]

we went up to 10,500 feet yesterday with three adults and two very small kids. no problem at all - about 6-12" of snow, none of it fresh tracks. power all the way, making the 4wd built up trucks look a little foolish compared to us just trucking up the same hill definitely no power issues, and this was the third time we rode at this location and the first with this much snow - just above central city colorado. No adult was much below 200lbs. could not be happier!

I want to go!!!! It never snows around here. When it does its gone within the hour. I'm glad to here it did well with no power issues and a full load.

I agree with the supply and demand. If they flood the market then they would not be that popular.

 

[Rod]

So, skeptics' sound and documented opinions are winning the match.

 

[Manly bug]

we went up to 10,500 feet yesterday with three adults and two very small kids. no problem at all - about 6-12" of snow, none of it fresh tracks. power all the way, making the 4wd built up trucks look a little foolish compared to us just trucking up the same hill definitely no power issues, and this was the third time we rode at this location and the first with this much snow - just above central city colorado. No adult was much below 200lbs. could not be happier!

Interesting. Not what I've seen at all.

But I was in Moab 2 weekends ago and I noticed a discernible increase in power there. I think most of Moab is 5000-6000 feet in elevation.

I'm thinking of running octane booster in my next tank in the Rockies, I have no idea if it will make a difference.

I don't think anything is "wrong" with my pioneer, I think it's just a matter of gearing and the fact that you can only squeeze so much power from 675cc.

It does fine on shall we say "average" hills. It's the steep stuff where it runs out of guts. It needs a lower gear, it just doesn't have the power (at altitude).

But that's ok, the Pioneer 700-4 is a great value nonetheless and Moab is only 5 1/2 hours from my house. I just have to be careful not to exceed the limitations on the Colorado trails I enjoy and the ones I used to take my FJ Cruiser on.

 

[DG Rider]

How many miles now, Manly?

 

[waterboy1]

I ride in Colorado every year with a rhino and it did everything I needed even at 13,000 ft I bought the p-4 thinking it should do the same thing I feel the low end is better than the rhino but I'm only at a 1000 ft now . I'm wondering is it going to climb the mountains

 

[DG Rider]

I ride in Colorado every year with a rhino and it did everything I needed even at 13,000 ft I bought the p-4 thinking it should do the same thing I feel the low end is better than the rhino but I'm only at a 1000 ft now . I'm wondering is it going to climb the mountains

Welcome to the forum.

I drove a Rhino for the 1st time back last summer when i was deciding which SxS to buy. I was a bit shocked at how high geared low range was.

 

[Manly bug]

How many miles now, Manly?

I have 90 miles on it. The last 20 or so were probably in Moab.