L
lifeisgoodsteve
Well-Known Member
Same occurrence as CID. When I make slow, sharp turns the steering gets very heavy.
Running 32’s at 12psi.
Running 32’s at 12psi.
L
lifeisgoodsteve
Well-Known Member
Hi All,
Curious if anyone has experience with the Honda Dealer on this one? Has anyone had it actually addressed and fixed?
My x4 does it specifically in slow, right angle or more turns on dirt or paved roads. Gets very stiff like a hard to turn manual. Running 32's at 12psi.
Mine is going into the shop hopefully next week to address popping out of Low gear so will ask them then as it's still quite new.
Cheers
s
Curious if anyone has experience with the Honda Dealer on this one? Has anyone had it actually addressed and fixed?
My x4 does it specifically in slow, right angle or more turns on dirt or paved roads. Gets very stiff like a hard to turn manual. Running 32's at 12psi.
Mine is going into the shop hopefully next week to address popping out of Low gear so will ask them then as it's still quite new.
Cheers
s
L
lifeisgoodsteve
Well-Known Member
So no fixes yet if running 32’s?
Does the RB3 rack solve it, though really would rather not put a new rack in a basically new sxs?
thx
s
Montecresto
Montecresto el segundo
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Club Contributor
The rack itself has nothing to do with the power assist. The power assist is provided TO the rack via a motor just above/before the rack.
The problem could be the Control Unit, Control Unit programming, Power Assist Motor, Torque Sensor or even the wire size/length.
Currently there is not a good fix for the stiff steering. There is an aftermarket high power assist motor "kit" but it has its own problems and does not interface with the stock electronics. More of a hack than a fix IMO.
Someone need to diagnose the problem and then come up with a viable fix.
Montecresto
Montecresto el segundo
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Club Contributor
Is this electronic steering upgrade that you’re recommending here the same one that you now consider to be more of a hack than a fix, or is this one still recommended?Same issues.
I plan on upgrading to one of these sometime soon.
Complete Honda Talon Electric Power Steering Kit - ePowerSteering.com
KIT-07 Complete electric power steering unit for 2019-20 Honda Talon. Includes rebuilt EPS unit, steering ECU, EPS controller and harness, 60 amp fuse, output and input u-joint, powder coated brackets, misc bolts and washers, and wiring instructions.epowersteering.com
H
hondabob
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
My 2019 and 2020 Talons with stock tires have good power steering then its weak for a bit then back to good power steering on sharp turns. Its mostly on a hard surface at the gas station on a sharp turn. It is probably like this on all Talons. It will be interesting to see if the 2022 Talon has improved power steering.
I have not upgraded. Not sure that I am. Still have same issue.
Montecresto
Montecresto el segundo
Lifetime Member
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Club Contributor
I've noticed with mine with the square profile tires on asphalt is hard as hell to turn, air them up to about 15-20psi and its better, Also I've noticed in the grass at a complete stop the tires will barely turn a little to the left and right and this is on both my Talon's and my buddies. My P1000 will turn all the way at a dead stop both ways .
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CID
Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
That's a deal breaker for me. I just installed BFG K02's, a much more square tire with a lot more contact surface than the stock tires or the Chicane RX's that I just replaced, I'll be curious to see how much worse the intermittently heavy steering gets.
This seems to be a recurring theme (Pioneer has better/more consistent power assist) and since the Pioneer and Talon share the same EPS Motor (including the torque sensor), it tends to points to something else.
Because the Talon has overload/overheat protection programmed into the ECU (not sure if the Pioneer does or not), the ECU can reduce or even terminate the power assist if it "thinks" the motor is heating up. Since there is no temp sensor in the Motor, it has to determine overheating by the watts the motor is drawing (thus the term "thinks" it overheats). My machine will do what feels like reduced power assist even when stone cold for what seems like no apparent reason. One second it will turn my 30's just fine and then 2 feet later, I lose most/all my power assist. Then as quick as I lost my assist, it will magically come back. Once I even lost my assist going 20 on a trail for no apparent reason. Just left camp about 1/4 mile and the assist was gone. Then in a matter of a couple turns, it was back for the remainder of the ride and has never done that since. To me, this points more to an issue with the ECU and not the motor itself.
Possible culprits are...
- EPS Control Unit. They are different between the 2 machines. Is the Talon ECU weaker or just programmed differently?
- Insufficient/too long of wiring from the Control Unit to the Motor. The wires from the ECU to the Motor are about twice as long on the Talon than they are on the Pioneer and even more so on the X4. Did Honda properly account for the added distance? Does this cause extra amperage draw that "fools" the ECU into thinking the Motor is heating up so it reduces the PS assist to avoid overheating?
I think I will either try larger wires from the ECU to the Motor or even relocate the ECU up front just next to the motor to shorten the wires and reduce the heat created in the wires to see if that is a contributing factor or not.
Might take me a little while to test so stay tuned
Preliminary tests are pointing to insufficient wire from the EPS ECU to the EPS Motor.This seems to be a recurring theme (Pioneer has better/more consistent power assist) and since the Pioneer and Talon share the same EPS Motor (including the torque sensor), it tends to points to something else.
Because the Talon has overload/overheat protection programmed into the ECU (not sure if the Pioneer does or not), the ECU can reduce or even terminate the power assist if it "thinks" the motor is heating up. Since there is no temp sensor in the Motor, it has to determine overheating by the watts the motor is drawing (thus the term "thinks" it overheats). My machine will do what feels like reduced power assist even when stone cold for what seems like no apparent reason. One second it will turn my 30's just fine and then 2 feet later, I lose most/all my power assist. Then as quick as I lost my assist, it will magically come back. Once I even lost my assist going 20 on a trail for no apparent reason. Just left camp about 1/4 mile and the assist was gone. Then in a matter of a couple turns, it was back for the remainder of the ride and has never done that since. To me, this points more to an issue with the ECU and not the motor itself.
Possible culprits are...
As far as I can come up with, testing the Control Unit is far beyond the normal equipment we all have. I contacted DynoJet about it and even though the EPS ECU communicates with the main PCU, they have not found a way to access the EPS ECU so there is nothing they can do programmatically or even look at the EPS ECU programming.
- EPS Control Unit. They are different between the 2 machines. Is the Talon ECU weaker or just programmed differently?
- Insufficient/too long of wiring from the Control Unit to the Motor. The wires from the ECU to the Motor are about twice as long on the Talon than they are on the Pioneer and even more so on the X4. Did Honda properly account for the added distance? Does this cause extra amperage draw that "fools" the ECU into thinking the Motor is heating up so it reduces the PS assist to avoid overheating?
I think I will either try larger wires from the ECU to the Motor or even relocate the ECU up front just next to the motor to shorten the wires and reduce the heat created in the wires to see if that is a contributing factor or not.
Might take me a little while to test so stay tuned
I connected meters in various configurations and started testing. Purposely low tire pressure and was experiencing the usual stiff/binding steering. One thing I noticed while testing was how random the stiffness was. It would steer fine then just randomly stop. Once I hooked the meters to the output side to the motor, I became more suspicious of the wiring.
ECU feed wires draw a peak of 21 amps but mostly around 15. The wires from the battery and ground to the ECU appear to be 10 gauge and around 6 total feet long for the entire circuit (it partially uses the frame for the return ground). I detected a about a 2% voltage drop at 21 amps on the feed wires and that is acceptable. At 15 amps, the drop was just over 1%.
Then I connected the amp meters to the output from the ECU to the Motor and that is when things got weird. Even when the steering is weak/binds, the ECU never stops feeding power to the motor. When it binds, the motor is drawing 30 amps @ 6 volts. Appears the ECU is inverting the voltage down and the amperage up for some reason.
Problem is the wires from the ECU to the motor are only ~12 gauge (smaller than the feed wires and more than twice as long and twice the amps) and you cannot push 30 amps over a 12 gauge wire, especially at 6 volts and 14 feet round trip. This calculates over 10% voltage drop and that cannot work very well. The most you should go with 12 gauge drawing 30 amps @ 6 volts is about 2.5 feet and that is round trip (both wire lengths added together). With 6 volts at the ECU and about 5.5 volts at the motor, we get a loss of .5 volts or 8.5% drop. That tells me the wire is either slightly larger than 12 gauge (probably metric 4mm2) or shorter than than 14 feet.
Next I made some temporary cables from the ECU to the Motor using some 4 gauge (that's all I had) and tested again. Motor is still pulling 30 amps but the voltage drop is now .071 volts (just over 1%) and is now acceptable. The steering seems better. Still a little stiff here and there but is doesn't completely lose power assist like it was during the first tests and the battery is pretty low from all the starting I did during testing. Just need to charge the battery back up and drive it on different surfaces and see if it is any better.
I will post back after I get a chance to drive it a couple hundred miles under different styles and terrains.
L
lifeisgoodsteve
Well-Known Member
Wow, thanks for such thorough testing. Would be an amazing help to so many people if you figured it out.
Thanks Paul for this testing! This is what my electrical background told me was the real problem....voltage drop and whats all associated with that. It doesn't make any sense to me as to why they are having the ecu lower the voltage and raise the amperage....especially with that size wire and distance....do u think someone could just up size the wires themselves permanently and see improvements? Maybe that's what you are saying with the 4 gauge wire.
DG Rider
Member: Triple Clutch Club
Lifetime Member
The 4 gauge is a test, my connections are simple, unsealed connectors right on the terminals and not a permanent solution by any means. Impractical to try to use that size of wire permanently.
There are no terminals available for the motor connector bigger the 12 gauge (maybe squeeze a 10 in the connector) so that is one problem. The connector on the ECU is yet to be identified but it is an uncommon 8mm (.312") sealed blade connector that I am yet to locate. It will handle #10 and possibly #8 wires. However, to get the voltage drop below 2% we are going to need a #6.
I wanted to start off with the least voltage drop I could so if the #4 wire works, I will progressively go smaller and determine the minimum size and go from there. IF it helps and once the minimum size is determined, then I will start working on a solution for connectors. Until then, more testing
VERY good question. I cannot find the ratios on either. Another consideration is the pioneer weighs more and has more weight up front due to the placement of the engine and battery BUT the tires are smaller.
Maybe we can do some "pull scale" tests on both with the engine off and see if the steering effort is similar? Unfortunately, I do not have a pull scale.
But I do have several torque wrenches. I think almost everyone has those.The 4 gauge is a test, my connections are simple, unsealed connectors right on the terminals and not a permanent solution by any means. Impractical to try to use that size of wire permanently.
There are no terminals available for the motor connector bigger the 12 gauge (maybe squeeze a 10 in the connector) so that is one problem. The connector on the ECU is yet to be identified but it is an uncommon 8mm (.312") sealed blade connector that I am yet to locate. It will handle #10 and possibly #8 wires. However, to get the voltage drop below 2% we are going to need a #6.
I wanted to start off with the least voltage drop I could so if the #4 wire works, I will progressively go smaller and determine the minimum size and go from there. IF it helps and once the minimum size is determined, then I will start working on a solution for connectors. Until then, more testing
VERY good question. I cannot find the ratios on either. Another consideration is the pioneer weighs more and has more weight up front due to the placement of the engine and battery BUT the tires are smaller.
Maybe we can do some "pull scale" tests on both with the engine off and see if the steering effort is similar? Unfortunately, I do not have a pull scale.
L
lifeisgoodsteve
Well-Known Member
Paul,
A few Talon owners elsewhere mentioned the power issue being resolved with a second battery added. They said some had observed the ps issue starting when they added a number of accessories.
I’m ignorant so wanted to see if you think a second battery would help?
s
A few Talon owners elsewhere mentioned the power issue being resolved with a second battery added. They said some had observed the ps issue starting when they added a number of accessories.
I’m ignorant so wanted to see if you think a second battery would help?
s
I run 2 batteries and every added accessory on my machine is on the second battery but still not happy with the power assist.
I can certainly see where a weak battery or many accessories would make it even worse because the voltage loss to begin with is horrendous. If you drop the source voltage any farther, it will have a multiplying affect on the steering. Currently with inversion and voltage loss, the motor only sees about 5.5 volts. If you drop the battery voltage I would assume that steering motor could see something as low as 5 volts and it just won't assist very well at that point.
The system calculates out at 180 watts (6 volts X 30 Amps) and that is shared between the motor and any loss in the wires/connections. The ECU never goes over 30 amps so with the voltage drop, the motor is only getting 165 watts and if you throw some additional voltage drop with accessories, you are now at 150 watts. That is a 17% drop in power assist.
Of course, this is all theoretical without actual testing but by what I have tested, it all looks possible to me.
With my mock up #4 wire, I am now at 5.93 volts at the motor (compared to 5.5 volts). May not sound like much but it really is quite a bit. My motor is now getting 178 out of the available 180 watts.
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