Honda talon stiff power steering

[martymoe]

Here's an update on mine.. it was at the dealer for 4 months they replaced the ps ecu and motor, they also replaced the steering rack and said they rang out all of the wiring. called me and said it was ready.. i went and got it and its still the same.. i was tired of it being there so i brought it home.. my battery died so instead of replacing it with a group 20 powersports battery i made a bracket and put it on the right rear of the frame that holds a full size car battery. i wired it with good battery cables. its maybe a little better.. but still not there.. as a reference when mine was at the dealer there was another 21 x4lv just like mine and we started it up and its power steering worked flawlessly
i guess i'm watching for a kit.

 

[Stilly1155]

Here's an update on mine.. it was at the dealer for 4 months they replaced the ps ecu and motor, they also replaced the steering rack and said they rang out all of the wiring. called me and said it was ready.. i went and got it and its still the same.. i was tired of it being there so i brought it home.. my battery died so instead of replacing it with a group 20 powersports battery i made a bracket and put it on the right rear of the frame that holds a full size car battery. i wired it with good battery cables. its maybe a little better.. but still not there.. as a reference when mine was at the dealer there was another 21 x4lv just like mine and we started it up and its power steering worked flawlessly
i guess i'm watching for a kit.

I also have a 2021 x4lv and haven't had any problems (knock on wood). I'm wondering if there is a bad connection in your wiring somewhere? I did just add 30" tires to mine and have not had the chance to take it out yet other than around the block. Hopefully it doesn't cause a problem.

 

[Bigshow]

Interested. Keeping an eye on this thread. Have not noticed any problems with mine yet, running 28" Terrabites with 10psi in tires.

 

[PaulF]

Update on relocated PS ECU...

Finally had a chance to test in real world conditions but before we get into that, I think it is a good idea to spell out what problems I encounter and observations about other machines so everyone can compare. The steering anomalies I have do not affect every machine. I have 2 almost identical 2019 R's and only one of them has always experienced the worst of the problems since it was brand new and now has 5K miles on it. The other (bought used with 16K miles) only occasionally has stiff steering stopped on pavement with the brakes applied but for the most part, the steering on that one works OK.

Here are the main problems with my problematic machine...

1. The main (and most dangerous) problem I and other have is the assist momentarily gives out when attempting a quick turn. It happens when the outside front tire gets loaded up as you go into a turn. The worse for me is in banked chicanes at the dunes with my buffs mounted on 14X8, 0 offset wheels. This tire/wheel combo is so bad, I stopped using them on this machine in fear of crashing. I can duplicate this problem at will on my problematic machine but the other machine has no issues with this tire/wheel combo. It still happens with my less offset wheels too but not near as bad.
2. The next most obvious issue is what I refer to as "Obstacle Steer". It is the constant left/right jerking of the wheel in your hands as you go over rough/rocky terrain. In extreme circumstances at lower speeds, the wheel can get completely ripped out of your hands if you don't have a good hold on it.
3. Angle steering when approaching an obstacle or dropping into an embankment at an angle. This happens to me all the time when rock crawling. Also happens at the dunes when dropping off a steep hill to level ground at the bottom at an angle. This momentary loss of steering caused me to lay mine over in the sand one time because I couldn't steer fast enough.
4. Steering feedback is extreme. I feel almost every little rock/bump/etc. on the trail through the wheel. It is basically a little constant vibration in the steering wheel.
5. Hard steering on hard surfaces. This is exacerbated by larger tires and lower pressures.
6. Other more subtle issues that became more obvious after I relocated my ECU.

Now for the meat of the matter ...

I took my Talon to the Dunes and I am SO thrilled with the results. I am no longer losing my steering on tight trails or in banked chicanes or when taking steep embankments with dips at the bottom at angles. Tested as low as 6psi and not a problem at all. Even stopped at the bottom of a 40* hill and the steering worked when stopped at the bottom and just dug the tires into the sand. I have never been able to do this before.

I also have never been able to drive at higher speeds with one hand before in fear of losing control of the machine. I have almost wrecked it a couple times on tight trails when the steering gives out momentarily. I even grazed a tree and have even laid it over once in the sand because I couldn't turn out of a lean fast enough. My Talon is a completely new machine and now a real pleasure to drive.

Swapped over to dirt tires at 10psi and now goes over rough terrain without "obstacle steer", the wheel is still as a mouse over 6" rocks at 25mph. It also seems much more responsive but that could just be due to the fact that it actually works correctly now.

It is also better when crawling, on pavement, everywhere. When the steering does stick, it only takes the slightest movement (forward or back) to get the wheel turning again instead of having to roll a foot or 2. Not perfect but very, VERY much improved for my problematic machine.

There wasn't a whole lot of crawling terrain where I was so I do need to do some serious crawling to compare how that goes but these tests have me optimistic!

Sample connectors on the way to make sure they are all correct (the 21 pin is the only one I am not 100% sure about). If everything checks out OK, I will order up a batch and start taking orders.

 

[Adam490]

Update on relocated PS ECU...

Finally had a chance to test in real world conditions but before we get into that, I think it is a good idea to spell out what problems I encounter and observations about other machines so everyone can compare. The steering anomalies I have do not affect every machine. I have 2 almost identical 2019 R's and only one of them has always experienced the worst of the problems since it was brand new and now has 5K miles on it. The other (bought used with 16K miles) only occasionally has stiff steering stopped on pavement with the brakes applied but for the most part, the steering on that one works OK.

Here are the main problems with my problematic machine...

1. The main (and most dangerous) problem I and other have is the assist momentarily gives out when attempting a quick turn. It happens when the outside front tire gets loaded up as you go into a turn. The worse for me is in banked chicanes at the dunes with my buffs mounted on 14X8, 0 offset wheels. This tire/wheel combo is so bad, I stopped using them on this machine in fear of crashing. I can duplicate this problem at will on my problematic machine but the other machine has no issues with this tire/wheel combo. It still happens with my less offset wheels too but not near as bad.
2. The next most obvious issue is what I refer to as "Obstacle Steer". It is the constant left/right jerking of the wheel in your hands as you go over rough/rocky terrain. In extreme circumstances at lower speeds, the wheel can get completely ripped out of your hands if you don't have a good hold on it.
3. Angle steering when approaching an obstacle or dropping into an embankment at an angle. This happens to me all the time when rock crawling. Also happens at the dunes when dropping off a steep hill to level ground at the bottom at an angle. This momentary loss of steering caused me to lay mine over in the sand one time because I couldn't steer fast enough.
4. Steering feedback is extreme. I feel almost every little rock/bump/etc. on the trail through the wheel. It is basically a little constant vibration in the steering wheel.
5. Hard steering on hard surfaces. This is exacerbated by larger tires and lower pressures.
6. Other more subtle issues that became more obvious after I relocated my ECU.

Now for the meat of the matter ...

I took my Talon to the Dunes and I am SO thrilled with the results. I am no longer losing my steering on tight trails or in banked chicanes or when taking steep embankments with dips at the bottom at angles. Tested as low as 6psi and not a problem at all. Even stopped at the bottom of a 40* hill and the steering worked when stopped at the bottom and just dug the tires into the sand. I have never been able to do this before.

I also have never been able to drive at higher speeds with one hand before in fear of losing control of the machine. I have almost wrecked it a couple times on tight trails when the steering gives out momentarily. I even grazed a tree and have even laid it over once in the sand because I couldn't turn out of a lean fast enough. My Talon is a completely new machine and now a real pleasure to drive.

Swapped over to dirt tires at 10psi and now goes over rough terrain without "obstacle steer", the wheel is still as a mouse over 6" rocks at 25mph. It also seems much more responsive but that could just be due to the fact that it actually works correctly now.

It is also better when crawling, on pavement, everywhere. When the steering does stick, it only takes the slightest movement (forward or back) to get the wheel turning again instead of having to roll a foot or 2. Not perfect but very, VERY much improved for my problematic machine.

There wasn't a whole lot of crawling terrain where I was so I do need to do some serious crawling to compare how that goes but these tests have me optimistic!

Sample connectors on the way to make sure they are all correct (the 21 pin is the only one I am not 100% sure about). If everything checks out OK, I will order up a batch and start taking orders.

Hell yeah, count me in. Thanks for sharing and doing the leg work

 

[Boundertom]

Your research and testing of this issue is very impressive! I would buy your kit.

 

[RKwate]

Very impressive work. What will the kit cost?

 

[PaulF]

Very impressive work. What will the kit cost?

Target price is $300

 

[HondaTech]

Target price is $300

Did you find the connector you were missing?

Send some pictures of what connectors you need and maybe i can cross reference to something else Honda makes.

Also have you seen RacCo is installing a cooling fan on the aftermarket steering kits they use to make them last longer.

We installed their upgraded kit on our XC car and my GM says its great now. But obviously this causes the stock system to lose its mind.

Edit: By "last longer" I was referring to the assist lasting longer. Those guys mainly race in the desert for long periods of time and the heat is probably a larger factor for them

 

[PaulF]

Did you find the connector you were missing?

Send some pictures of what connectors you need and maybe i can cross reference to something else Honda makes.

Also have you seen RacCo is installing a cooling fan on the aftermarket steering kits they use to make them last longer.

We installed their upgraded kit on our XC car and my GM says its great now. But obviously this causes the stock system to lose its mind.

Yes, I have identified and have all the connector manufacturer's part numbers and have all the housings, terminals and seals figured out. Located multiple sources for each.

I don't think temperature is going to be a problem for the stock ECU and average rider. I tortured my machine for an hour straight at the dunes and the ECU barely got warm. Appears that the closer proximity between the ECU and the Motor cools things down because we are not throwing away almost 10% of the energy anymore.

Temp test was just by hand touch so more testing to come and this time with temp probes on a stock machine and a modified to see which runs warmer.

RaceCo makes outstanding stuff that is generally geared for the racer. Most of us are nowhere near that caliber and just want our s*** to work like it is supposed too and not have to upgrade everything. Their solution looks fantastic, a 400 watt motor is more than ample for a ~2,000 lb. car but it is near $3,000 to "fix" something that should just work for 99% of us.

I am trying to create a fix for the masses and keep it reasonable. If it fixes most of the Talon's PS problems for 1/10th the cost of RaceCo's, I think I have managed to do just that.

 

[HondaTech]

Yes, I have identified and have all the connector manufacturer's part numbers and have all the housings, terminals and seals figured out. Located multiple sources for each.

I don't think temperature is going to be a problem for the stock ECU and average rider. I tortured my machine for an hour straight at the dunes and the ECU barely got warm. Appears that the closer proximity between the ECU and the Motor cools things down because we are not throwing away almost 10% of the energy anymore.

Temp test was just by hand touch so more testing to come and this time with temp probes on a stock machine and a modified to see which runs warmer.

RaceCo makes outstanding stuff that is generally geared for the racer. Most of us are nowhere near that caliber and just want our s*** to work like it is supposed too and not have to upgrade everything. Their solution looks fantastic, a 400 watt motor is more than ample for a ~2,000 lb. car but it is near $3,000 to "fix" something that should just work for 99% of us.

I am trying to create a fix for the masses and keep it reasonable. If it fixes most of the Talon's PS problems for 1/10th the cost of RaceCo's, I think I have managed to do just that.

Their actually cooling the motor, im guessing the temperature probe for the ecm is there.

I didnt realize that kit was almost $3000, my GM apparently has more money in his car than i thought.

 

[jonacombs]

Target price is $300

Great! I run

Yes, I have identified and have all the connector manufacturer's part numbers and have all the housings, terminals and seals figured out. Located multiple sources for each.

I don't think temperature is going to be a problem for the stock ECU and aat verage rider. I tortured my machine for an hour straight at the dunes and the ECU barely got warm. Appears that the closer proximity between the ECU and the Motor cools things down because we are not throwing away almost 10% of the energy anymore.

Temp test was just by hand touch so more testing to come and this time with temp probes on a stock machine and a modified to see which runs warmer.

RaceCo makes outstanding stuff that is generally geared for the racer. Most of us are nowhere near that caliber and just want our s*** to work like it is supposed too and not have to upgrade everything. Their solution looks fantastic, a 400 watt motor is more than ample for a ~2,000 lb. car but it is near $3,000 to "fix" something that should just work for 99% of us.

I am trying to create a fix for the masses and keep it reasonable. If it fixes most of the Talon's PS problems for 1/10th the cost of RaceCo's, I think I have managed to do just that.

That's great! I only rock crawl and hill climb (not much other options on the east coast). My PS has been "okay" but often goes out/hangs up in the rocks. I just changed tires from 32 inch 370s to 32 inch Roxxzilla stickies. Now my PS doesn't work at all on the pavement and is noticeably weaker everywhere else.

 

[PaulF]

Great! I run

That's great! I only rock crawl and hill climb (not much other options on the east coast). My PS has been "okay" but often goes out/hangs up in the rocks. I just changed tires from 32 inch 370s to 32 inch Roxxzilla stickies. Now my PS doesn't work at all on the pavement and is noticeably weaker everywhere else.

I still need to do some more testing on the rocks but I am guessing that 32" RoxXzilla stickies on the Talon's measly 210 Watt PS system is probably asking a bit much, even after you install this fix. It will help but I am not sure just how much.

I'm headed to Sand Hollow in March so I will get a good week's worth of testing in before I determine just how successful the ECU relocation will be at crawling.

 

[PaulF]

Progress on procuring parts for the plug and play harness have begun. 4 of the plugs are common, one is rare and the 6th doesn't exist (yet). I have a custom molding outfit looking at making the rare and non existent plugs, should know something in a few days.

I have the locker sitting on my desk. I had the same concern but now with the ECU relocated, I am optimistic that it will be acceptable. I will install the locker this week and hopefully begin testing the steering with the locker next weekend (weather permitting).

Stay tuned!

Torq Locker installed and tested all day today. The TL does add a tiny bit of "heaviness" to the steering when moving slow in both 2 and 4WD (don't notice at all once you get over 10mph). It was not a lot but because of all my other testing it was enough for me to notice. A couple times in 2WD, it seemed the TL was kind of bound up and then disengaged with a minor "thud" as I started to move/turn a little and caused some minor steering bind. This "binding" decreased as the day went on and didn't happen in the last hour at all. We did over 50 miles today and the instruction say it needs 100 miles to break in so I think it will operate smoother after break in. The Talon is so noisy, I only heard the normal "clicking/ratchetting" only once all day when maneuvering it to load it on the trailer. If it provides a better rock crawling experience with these minor changes, it will be worth it to me.

I really pushed the machine in the banked chicanes today harder than I ever dared before to see if the TL had any affect. Kept up with my RZR Turbo S buddy and I have never been able to do that. Keeping 2 hands on the wheel at all times just in case and the steering only felt slightly heavy for just a split second once all day. Nothing that caused me to lose control or even have to "muscle" the wheel, I just noticed it going into a bank super hard/fast. So hard that it bottomed out the RF so I was really pushing it more that my suspension could handle. All the weight and G's of the machine basically on the RF and it barely even flinched. I probably would not have even noticed but I was purposely trying to create steering problems and mindful of every little bit of feedback.

As far as the Dunes go, my Talon is simply a new machine. I am not afraid to push it in the turns anymore and it is now a pleasure to drive. I even took a lower trail that was winding through the trees to avoid some bad whoops and I was absolutely thrilled how good my machine turned and handles. I cannot emphasize just how much better my Talon is in the dunes now. I am pissed it took me almost 3 years to really enjoy the machine like this.

As far as the relocated ECU, after driving it a bit and feeling the heaviness, I elected to jump the steering into 4WD boost (35 amps instead of 30) in 2WD and that seemed to eliminate most (if not all) the heaviness. Steering was also just fine in 4WD. Once the TL breaks in, I will try normal operation again.

There have been plenty of reviews of the TL itself so I won't get into too much detail. As others have mentioned, you can sure tell the front is locked up when accelerating up an uneven/bumpy hill. Once I have a chance to do some extensive crawling in March, I will post my full review in the TL thread.

As far as steering goes, If you are having PS issues without the TL, it will only get a little worse after you install the TL.

Those of you that don't have PS problems need to feel lucky!

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Torq Locker installed and tested all day today. The TL does add a tiny bit of "heaviness" to the steering when moving slow in both 2 and 4WD (don't notice at all once you get over 10mph). It was not a lot but because of all my other testing it was enough for me to notice. A couple times in 2WD, it seemed the TL was kind of bound up and then disengaged with a minor "thud" as I started to move/turn a little and caused some minor steering bind. This "binding" decreased as the day went on and didn't happen in the last hour at all. We did over 50 miles today and the instruction say it needs 100 miles to break in so I think it will operate smoother after break in. The Talon is so noisy, I only heard the normal "clicking/ratchetting" only once all day when maneuvering it to load it on the trailer. If it provides a better rock crawling experience with these minor changes, it will be worth it to me.

I really pushed the machine in the banked chicanes today harder than I ever dared before to see if the TL had any affect. Kept up with my RZR Turbo S buddy and I have never been able to do that. Keeping 2 hands on the wheel at all times just in case and the steering only felt slightly heavy for just a split second once all day. Nothing that caused me to lose control or even have to "muscle" the wheel, I just noticed it going into a bank super hard/fast. So hard that it bottomed out the RF so I was really pushing it more that my suspension could handle. All the weight and G's of the machine basically on the RF and it barely even flinched. I probably would not have even noticed but I was purposely trying to create steering problems and mindful of every little bit of feedback.

As far as the Dunes go, my Talon is simply a new machine. I am not afraid to push it in the turns anymore and it is now a pleasure to drive. I even took a lower trail that was winding through the trees to avoid some bad whoops and I was absolutely thrilled how good my machine turned and handles. I cannot emphasize just how much better my Talon is in the dunes now. I am pissed it took me almost 3 years to really enjoy the machine like this.

As far as the relocated ECU, after driving it a bit and feeling the heaviness, I elected to jump the steering into 4WD boost (35 amps instead of 30) in 2WD and that seemed to eliminate most (if not all) the heaviness. Steering was also just fine in 4WD. Once the TL breaks in, I will try normal operation again.

There have been plenty of reviews of the TL itself so I won't get into too much detail. As others have mentioned, you can sure tell the front is locked up when accelerating up an uneven/bumpy hill. Once I have a chance to do some extensive crawling in March, I will post my full review in the TL thread.

As far as steering goes, If you are having PS issues without the TL, it will only get a little worse after you install the TL.

Those of you that don't have PS problems need to feel lucky!

Sounds promising!
Take my money!!! 😂

 

[CID]

Sounds promising!
Take my money!!! 😂

How bad is your power assist, on a 1 to 10? With the exception of one really bad day (an 8), mine is a 2 at the worst.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

How bad is your power assist, on a 1 to 10? With the exception of one really bad day (an 8), mine is a 2 at the worst.

I have portals and 31’s.

at best a 5

at worst it completely drops out to nothing. (4-5x a ride)

 

[PaulF]

How bad is your power assist, on a 1 to 10? With the exception of one really bad day (an 8), mine is a 2 at the worst.

At the dunes...

Before relocating the ECU, I would rate it a 4 overall. Barely adequate with the occasional complete loss of assist to the point it was dangerous at times.

After relocating the ECU, I would rate it a 9. Not perfect but damn close (and a LOT safer)!

 

[wrighteous]

I have 2 Rs that definately need better steering, must be why some ps ecus are closer to the actual motor
I'll be in for a harness or 2 for sure

 

[lifeisgoodsteve]

Couple nights ago trying to do a 3 point turn in a friend's driveway there was basically zero power assist when not moving, leaving it even harder than if it was a designed manual rack. Only when starting to move did I get a little bit of assist.

32" BFG KM3's were down to about 9-10 for snow driving.

Would really really appreciate actually having power steering.