P1000 Lithium Batteries

[PaulF]

Lithium batteries are a little higher voltage so your Honda's alternator is not the correct voltage or charging schema for a Lithium battery. It will never fully charge a Lithium so you will never see its full potential. It will also shorten the lifespan of the battery because it will only get charges about 80 to 85%.

IF you still decide to run a Lithium, keep in mind...

• All Lithium batteries should have a Battery Management System (BMS) in them. It controls charging and discharging to avoid damaging the cells. DO NOT buy a Lithium that does not have a BMS (if there is such a thing).
• You cannot fast/full charge a Lithium under 32 degrees or it will damage the battery so make sure the battery you buy has a BMS that prevents (or drastically reduces) charging until the battery is above 32 degrees.
• You cannot discharge a Lithium under zero degrees so if you need starting below that, a Lithium is not for you.
• You will need a Lithium specific charger/tender for home.
• Lithium batteries are not designed for cranking, they are designed for sustained draws so chose a battery with a large enough BMS for cranking. If you overdraw the BMS while cranking, it will loop through a shut down/reset and never start your engine (it will act like a dead battery or lose connection).
• Make sure the BMS will allow enough charging to meet what the alternator is putting out. If the BMS only allows 15 amps and the alternator is trying to pump 20 into the battery, the BMS will cycle the charging.
• Make sure the BMS has enough discharge to accommodate the highest draw (probably the winch or starter) or it will cut out when the draw exceeds the BMS limit.

 

[Admin]

 

[Remington]

Lithium batteries are a little higher voltage so your Honda's alternator is not the correct voltage or charging schema for a Lithium battery. It will never fully charge a Lithium so you will never see its full potential. It will also shorten the lifespan of the battery because it will only get charges about 80 to 85%.

IF you still decide to run a Lithium, keep in mind...

• All Lithium batteries should have a Battery Management System (BMS) in them. It controls charging and discharging to avoid damaging the cells. DO NOT buy a Lithium that does not have a BMS (if there is such a thing).
• You cannot fast/full charge a Lithium under 32 degrees or it will damage the battery so make sure the battery you buy has a BMS that prevents (or drastically reduces) charging until the battery is above 32 degrees.
• You cannot discharge a Lithium under zero degrees so if you need starting below that, a Lithium is not for you.
• You will need a Lithium specific charger/tender for home.
• Lithium batteries are not designed for cranking, they are designed for sustained draws so chose a battery with a large enough BMS for cranking. If you overdraw the BMS while cranking, it will loop through a shut down/reset and never start your engine (it will act like a dead battery or lose connection).
• Make sure the BMS will allow enough charging to meet what the alternator is putting out. If the BMS only allows 15 amps and the alternator is trying to pump 20 into the battery, the BMS will cycle the charging.
• Make sure the BMS has enough discharge to accommodate the highest draw (probably the winch or starter) or it will cut out when the draw exceeds the BMS limit.

Have been thinking of how to explain to these guys this. You did a
phenomenal job!

 

[PaulF]

Have been thinking of how to explain to these guys this. You did a
phenomenal job!

I will add one more related thing. The Talon (and probably all current Honda models) run an Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) battery with a matching alternator (more specifically the voltage regulator). It is a lead acid type battery but requires a slightly higher charging voltage and different charging schema so make sure the charger/tender you use has an AGM setting.

And DO NOT put a standard flooded battery in a machine designed for an AGM or it will overcharge it and possibly boil out the acid.

 

[mpilihp]

I respectfully disagree with some of what you've said.

Lead acid (Pb) batteries last longest when discharged only down to 80%, and 50% should be considered the "floor" for longevity. They last longest if stored fully charged. The plates will sulfate, increasing internal resistance and capacity if left discharged for any length of time. Their cyclic life is limited compared to Li or LiFePO4.

On the other hand "lithium" batteries should be stored a 40 to 60% charge for optimal lifespan. You can discharge a lithium battery down to 0 percent with no damage. Unlike a Pb battery, Li maintains its voltage much better during discharge, and charge/discharge cycles are far higher than Pb. So while initial cost is higher, the additional life cycles makes up for that. Energy density is much greater to, especially considering the lighter weight.

Not saying Pb doesn't have it's place - - boringly reliable. If you have a Tesla, you never know when it might be good time to stop and have a nice campfire.

I think you got your numbers mixed up, a deep cycle lead acid battery can easily be discharged to greater than 50% and quality ones up to 80%, see link:

Characteristics of Lead Acid Batteries | PVEducation​

www.pveducation.org

Also I just bought a Group 24 deep cycle battery for $120, for that price compared to LithIon batteries I can buy multiple and for the same cost and the total of those batteries will last longer than the one Lith battery.

I agree go with the well known simple solution. Lith batteries require a BMS and is just another item to fail and cause the entire battery to be useless....

 

[PaulF]

I think you got your numbers mixed up, a deep cycle lead acid battery can easily be discharged to greater than 50% and quality ones up to 80%,

True but you lose cycles the more you discharge, even with a deep cycle. If you do the math, Lithium cost about the same or in some cases, less over the life of the battery.

Let's use the 50% discharge rule for the Deep Cycle...

$120 Deep Cycle 100 AH battery discharged 50% will give you 1,000 cycles (if you maintain the battery perfectly). This is equal to 50KWh of usable power over the lifetime of the battery. That is $2.40 per KWh.

$600 Lithium 100 AH battery discharged 100% will give you 4,000 cycles (and a good BMS will not let you ruin the battery). This is equal to 400KWh of usable power. That is $1.50 per KWh. You could spend $1,000 on an overpriced Battle Born battery and still only be $2.50 per KWh.

To get the same lifetime output, you would need to buy 8 Deep Cycle batteries ($960)

And keep in mind, Lithium is less than half the weight so you can carry twice as many (that equates to 4 times the capacity because you can discharge 100%), they maintain more consistent voltage all the way to 100% discharge. For example, my Deep Cycle units in my RV when fully charged will run my Microwave and Espresso Maker (about 2,400 watts total) but will not provide enough volts for my inverter to supply 1,200 watts for my microwave once they are about 50% discharged. I would not have that problem with Lithiums, even at 100% discharge.

The initial up-front cost scares people away but sometimes Lithium is a better choice. For a car or motorcycle?, NO, I would never use Lithium. For an RV or solar array, most of the time Lithium with the proper BMS is better unless you are consistently in the cold.

 

[bumperm]

What @PaulF said. Also see Depth of Discharge

While lead-acid batteries have been around forever (well, over 150 years anyway), for many applications, where weight, power density, and longevity are important, they are being eclipsed by relatively more modern tech batteries.

 

[russknight]

Lithium batteries are a little higher voltage so your Honda's alternator is not the correct voltage or charging schema for a Lithium battery. It will never fully charge a Lithium so you will never see its full potential. It will also shorten the lifespan of the battery because it will only get charges about 80 to 85%.

IF you still decide to run a Lithium, keep in mind...

• All Lithium batteries should have a Battery Management System (BMS) in them. It controls charging and discharging to avoid damaging the cells. DO NOT buy a Lithium that does not have a BMS (if there is such a thing).
• You cannot fast/full charge a Lithium under 32 degrees or it will damage the battery so make sure the battery you buy has a BMS that prevents (or drastically reduces) charging until the battery is above 32 degrees.
• You cannot discharge a Lithium under zero degrees so if you need starting below that, a Lithium is not for you.
• You will need a Lithium specific charger/tender for home.
• Lithium batteries are not designed for cranking, they are designed for sustained draws so chose a battery with a large enough BMS for cranking. If you overdraw the BMS while cranking, it will loop through a shut down/reset and never start your engine (it will act like a dead battery or lose connection).
• Make sure the BMS will allow enough charging to meet what the alternator is putting out. If the BMS only allows 15 amps and the alternator is trying to pump 20 into the battery, the BMS will cycle the charging.
• Make sure the BMS has enough discharge to accommodate the highest draw (probably the winch or starter) or it will cut out when the draw exceeds the BMS limit.

What voltage is required to properly charge a lithium?

 

[bumperm]

A LiFePO4 battery is quite happy with 14 to 14.6 volts, so is compatible with most regulated alternator outputs. Keep in mind that lead acid battery internal resistance is much higher than lithium batteries, so requires a greater voltage differential (higher voltage than the lead-acid battery), to charge it. True even offers a battery isolator that is compatible with a "mix" of lithium and Pb.

Some batteries, especially those like the lithium Ion that does not have cell balance on-board (it's in the charger), I've had on my Honda S2000 for the past 5 or 6 years, do require a separate charger for when the vehicle is parked or stored.

 

[mpilihp]

True but you lose cycles the more you discharge, even with a deep cycle. If you do the math, Lithium cost about the same or in some cases, less over the life of the battery.

Let's use the 50% discharge rule for the Deep Cycle...

$120 Deep Cycle 100 AH battery discharged 50% will give you 1,000 cycles (if you maintain the battery perfectly). This is equal to 50KWh of usable power over the lifetime of the battery. That is $2.40 per KWh.

$600 Lithium 100 AH battery discharged 100% will give you 4,000 cycles (and a good BMS will not let you ruin the battery). This is equal to 400KWh of usable power. That is $1.50 per KWh. You could spend $1,000 on an overpriced Battle Born battery and still only be $2.50 per KWh.

To get the same lifetime output, you would need to buy 8 Deep Cycle batteries ($960)

And keep in mind, Lithium is less than half the weight so you can carry twice as many (that equates to 4 times the capacity because you can discharge 100%), they maintain more consistent voltage all the way to 100% discharge. For example, my Deep Cycle units in my RV when fully charged will run my Microwave and Espresso Maker (about 2,400 watts total) but will not provide enough volts for my inverter to supply 1,200 watts for my microwave once they are about 50% discharged. I would not have that problem with Lithiums, even at 100% discharge.

The initial up-front cost scares people away but sometimes Lithium is a better choice. For a car or motorcycle?, NO, I would never use Lithium. For an RV or solar array, most of the time Lithium with the proper BMS is better unless you are consistently in the cold.

So when getting right down to the technical aspects what your saying may be true but in real world UTV applications I do not think the average user would cycle their battery 1000 times in 5 years (I dont), let alone 4000 times for a Lith battery in 10 years. A lith battery may last longer than 10 years but that is the general time period vendors speak to. I know 5 years is longer than some vendors speak to for the life of a deep cycle lead battery but my experience is I can have a battery last me 6 years so going with 5 as its a safe number and easy to compare costs with a lith battery at 10 years. That said I can buy 2 batteries for a time period of 10 years compared to one lith battery and its much cheaper overall.

 

[Remington]

So when getting right down to the technical aspects what your saying may be true but in real world UTV applications I do not think the average user would cycle their battery 1000 times in 5 years (I dont), let alone 4000 times for a Lith battery in 10 years. A lith battery may last longer than 10 years but that is the general time period vendors speak to. I know 5 years is longer than some vendors speak to for the life of a deep cycle lead battery but my experience is I can have a battery last me 6 years so going with 5 as its a safe number and easy to compare costs with a lith battery at 10 years. That said I can buy 2 batteries for a time period of 10 years compared to one lith battery and its much cheaper overall.

 

[PaulF]

So when getting right down to the technical aspects what your saying may be true but in real world UTV applications I do not think the average user would cycle their battery 1000 times in 5 years (I dont), let alone 4000 times for a Lith battery in 10 years. A lith battery may last longer than 10 years but that is the general time period vendors speak to. I know 5 years is longer than some vendors speak to for the life of a deep cycle lead battery but my experience is I can have a battery last me 6 years so going with 5 as its a safe number and easy to compare costs with a lith battery at 10 years. That said I can buy 2 batteries for a time period of 10 years compared to one lith battery and its much cheaper overall.

You must not have read my post carefully, don't understand it or are picking and choosing what to read because we (for the most part) agree.

 

[PaulF]

What voltage is required to properly charge a lithium?

A LiFePO4 battery is quite happy with 14 to 14.6 volts, so is compatible with most regulated alternator outputs. Keep in mind that lead acid battery internal resistance is much higher than lithium batteries, so requires a greater voltage differential (higher voltage than the lead-acid battery), to charge it. True even offers a battery isolator that is compatible with a "mix" of lithium and Pb.

Some batteries, especially those like the lithium Ion that does not have cell balance on-board (it's in the charger), I've had on my Honda S2000 for the past 5 or 6 years, do require a separate charger for when the vehicle is parked or stored.

It depends on the battery manufacturer but most Lithiums charge at .25C to .5C in the 14 to 14.5 range to get it to around 80-90% charge then requires 14.8-15 volts at a lower .1C for the last 10-20%.

My Talon puts out 14.2 at most so a lithium in a Talon (and most other cars) will charge somewhere in the 80-90% range. It will never get that last high volt, low current "top off" in a car. You need a charger, RV converter or solar controller specifically made for Lithium to get the last 10-20%.

 

[russknight]

Had an interesting thing happen today, wanted to warn everyone. I bought a lithium battery for my starting battery. Due to my isolator malfunctioning a while back, I had the second (PC925 AGM) battery disconnected. Today when I installed the new lithium battery, I hooked the two positives together and the moment I touched the negative jumper from the AGM to the negative post on the lithium, it instantly, and I mean instantly vaporized part of the lithium negative terminal and the connector off the jumper wire. I suspect the second battery had been disconnected so long it had internally shorted. Any idea why this happened? Was the AGM shorted internally?

 

[bumperm]

Had an interesting thing happen today, wanted to warn everyone. I bought a lithium battery for my starting battery. Due to my isolator malfunctioning a while back, I had the second (PC925 AGM) battery disconnected. Today when I installed the new lithium battery, I hooked the two positives together and the moment I touched the negative jumper from the AGM to the negative post on the lithium, it instantly, and I mean instantly vaporized part of the lithium negative terminal and the connector off the jumper wire. I suspect the second battery had been disconnected so long it had internally shorted. Any idea why this happened? Was the AGM shorted internally?

Hard to say with certainty without more info. Connecting the dissimilar batteries directly together is, as you no doubt know now, a major no-no. If the voltage on the two batteries was exactly the same, nothing would have happened. But with a difference in voltage, the high battery would charge the low battery. If the Pb battery had a higher voltage than the Lithium (which would normally only be the case if the lithium were discharged, then the current out of the Pb may have been very high.

Does your Lithium battery have a BMS (battery management system) - this is circuitry to balance cells, prevent overcurrent discharge, and over current charging? If so, the BMS should have protected the Lithium battery. Lithiums have very low internal resistance, so can output extremely high current, especially without a BMS.

On the other hand, lead acid batteries have higher internal resistance, which normally limits charging current if the charging voltage source is of reasonable voltage (i.e. 15 volts applied to a lead acid battery isn't going to weld stuff unless the batteries internal plates are shorted etc. What was the charge state of your AGM battery?

 

[WagginTail]

Had an interesting thing happen today, wanted to warn everyone. I bought a lithium battery for my starting battery. Due to my isolator malfunctioning a while back, I had the second (PC925 AGM) battery disconnected. Today when I installed the new lithium battery, I hooked the two positives together and the moment I touched the negative jumper from the AGM to the negative post on the lithium, it instantly, and I mean instantly vaporized part of the lithium negative terminal and the connector off the jumper wire. I suspect the second battery had been disconnected so long it had internally shorted. Any idea why this happened? Was the AGM shorted internally?

That is interesting. I had a deep cycle battery for my trolling motor reverse polarity one time. I never knew that was such a thing until then

 

[russknight]

Hard to say with certainty without more info. Connecting the dissimilar batteries directly together is, as you no doubt know now, a major no-no. If the voltage on the two batteries was exactly the same, nothing would have happened. But with a difference in voltage, the high battery would charge the low battery. If the Pb battery had a higher voltage than the Lithium (which would normally only be the case if the lithium were discharged, then the current out of the Pb may have been very high.

Does your Lithium battery have a BMS (battery management system) - this is circuitry to balance cells, prevent overcurrent discharge, and over current charging? If so, the BMS should have protected the Lithium battery. Lithiums have very low internal resistance, so can output extremely high current, especially without a BMS.

On the other hand, lead acid batteries have higher internal resistance, which normally limits charging current if the charging voltage source is of reasonable voltage (i.e. 15 volts applied to a lead acid battery isn't going to weld stuff unless the batteries internal plates are shorted etc. What was the charge state of your AGM battery?

The AGM battery was discharged to the point it would not recharge. I thought the lithium had a BMS, but obviously not. It has some kind of reserve feature that won't allow it to be completely discharged. Has a button on top to press if you ever need a "jump start."

 

[grizzly660fan]

I think you guys might be mixing drop in replacement Lithium Batteries to those larger ones for RV type applications?

The manufacturer of the drop in replacements do make them to work generally with most charging systems without requiring upgrading other engine/charging components to work. I am not sure the comments around the 80-90% charge is the most you will get are accurate for "drop in replacements".

Also the quotes of the prices seem more to align with larger physical sized batteries again used for RV or other similar uses.

I thought this discussion was about the type of battery as an example in this link:

Amazon Link

The comments about cold temps do still apply but the instructions on those drop in replacements I have used say when it is really cold, crank the starter a little that warms the battery internals slightly and then they work fully. Once the engine is working the heat from the engine then keeps the battery warmer than those temperatures that might harm a battery if indeed it doesn't somehow have a BMS onboard. I admit there are a lot of variables and these are general statements. I don't usually ride much if the outside temp is lower than about 20-25 Fahrenheit so likely others do go more extreme and their mileage using a drop in replacement will vary.

Hopefully this info is useful to the OP?

 

[bumperm]

IF the lithium battery is the main or starter battery, then the drill for starting in the cold, as you state, is to apply a load to warm up the battery before starting. I think it best, easier on the equipment, to turn on lighting, high beams or LED bar, for several minutes rather than use the starter motor.

I have a lithium battery in my Honda S2000, but I've never had the need to start it in very cold temps as it's mostly a fair weather driver.

https://imgur.com/vIxCAYz

 

[russknight]

IF the lithium battery is the main or starter battery, then the drill for starting in the cold, as you state, is to apply a load to warm up the battery before starting. I think it best, easier on the equipment, to turn on lighting, high beams or LED bar, for several minutes rather than use the starter motor.

I have a lithium battery in my Honda S2000, but I've never had the need to start it in very cold temps as it's mostly a fair weather driver.

https://imgur.com/vIxCAYz

Love those S2000's!!!

 

[russknight]

Just ordered this battery for my second one.

NOCO