P500 tipping point

[FlyingPot8oh]

View attachment 109953

Here is a diagram to help folks understand the relationship between more ground clearance say with taller tires and how it affects the tipping angle. My 2018 P5 had a sticker saying the tipping angle is 33.5 degrees. My calculations in the attached diagram indicate the center of gravity is about 38 inches above grade or about 3 inches above the rack. Since most of the mass of the P5 is below the rack, the center of gravity they used is obviously including people and cargo. One can use the diagram and examples to work out their own situation. I was interested in taller tires giving 2 inches of additional clearance. For those not sure about the math, Tan is short for tangent of an angle which is simply the side opposite the angle divided by the adjacent side. Most calculators have this function so it isn’t as scary as it Looks for the math. I also used a rounded 50 inch width so x=25 inches.....it is a bit less than that for the rear tires in reality. One can also use the diagram to calculate the new roll over angle if one does not elect to use a wider stance with spacers or offset wheels.

I've been lurking for some time, as long as the BBS website would allow. Now I own a P-500. I appreciate your trying to show tip angle and how to figure it out. I have to say, it's a bit obtuse.
Also, You've said there's a sticker on the machine stating a tipping angle. Mine's a 2015 model. I haven't found any such sticker, where is it? I also haven't found anything like that in the the official dealer's maintenance manual or the owner's manual.
I've also discovered a big difference in perceived stability depending on tire pressure. I wonder how any sticker that makes an absolute claim can account for that.

Regarding aftermarket inclinometers, I'm dubious, have been for years. Most are simply plum-bobs in bearings. Electronically, so are those in smart-phones, where accelerometers are used.

Where can I find an accurate system that I can rely on? Also, what math can I rely on? Someone says tip angle for a stock P-500 is a shave more than 33 degrees. What does that mean in the real world?

On area trails that I would find mild on my (very long gone, stolen, in fact) Yamaha Tri-Moto 125 easily ridden, in winter on my snowmobile, laughably easy, I sweat bullets trying not to let my geriatric father hit the dirt coming 'round a left-hand bend. It can't be all that bad, it just feels that way. Mostly I expect it's because the P-500 is relatively tall and narrow, and I can't lean into the turn. I'd like to have hard data.

BTW, I have the original OEM option plastic roof. With it, my P-500 is just shorter than my Father's 3/4 Chevy truck, a bit taller than my old Ford pick-up, and about the height of my FJ-55 Land Cruiser on 30.5" tires. I never felt afraid of rolling my beloved FJ-55. It's 68" wide, I guess that's the difference (I imagine the center of gravity must be much higher than the P-500).

 

[Admin]

 

[JACKAL]

I've been lurking for some time, as long as the BBS website would allow. Now I own a P-500. I appreciate your trying to show tip angle and how to figure it out. I have to say, it's a bit obtuse.
Also, You've said there's a sticker on the machine stating a tipping angle. Mine's a 2015 model. I haven't found any such sticker, where is it? I also haven't found anything like that in the the official dealer's maintenance manual or the owner's manual.
I've also discovered a big difference in perceived stability depending on tire pressure. I wonder how any sticker that makes an absolute claim can account for that.

Regarding aftermarket inclinometers, I'm dubious, have been for years. Most are simply plum-bobs in bearings. Electronically, so are those in smart-phones, where accelerometers are used.

Where can I find an accurate system that I can rely on? Also, what math can I rely on? Someone says tip angle for a stock P-500 is a shave more than 33 degrees. What does that mean in the real world?

On area trails that I would find mild on my (very long gone, stolen, in fact) Yamaha Tri-Moto 125 easily ridden, in winter on my snowmobile, laughably easy, I sweat bullets trying not to let my geriatric father hit the dirt coming 'round a left-hand bend. It can't be all that bad, it just feels that way. Mostly I expect it's because the P-500 is relatively tall and narrow, and I can't lean into the turn. I'd like to have hard data.

BTW, I have the original OEM option plastic roof. With it, my P-500 is just shorter than my Father's 3/4 Chevy truck, a bit taller than my old Ford pick-up, and about the height of my FJ-55 Land Cruiser on 30.5" tires. I never felt afraid of rolling my beloved FJ-55. It's 68" wide, I guess that's the difference (I imagine the center of gravity must be much higher than the P-500).

The tip scale cards included with new machines are conducted under controlled conditions, on a SMOOTH table, Motionless with no forward inertia etc. as in a "Real World " scenario.

Inclinometers - what they read is what you get. Gravity is a constant, that said the most sensitive I have seen are the digital ones in VIRB cameras which use a digital gyroscope just like smartphones. I have never been in a real world situation where I could be bothered to look at that driving sketchy off camber.

Experience and seat of the pants feeling should guide you, if it looks or makes you feel unsafe and no route to turn into the hill going up or down hill going down then its not worth it. No magic # on any tool will replace common sense.

Real World situations involve rough terrain that is unpredictable, and inertia imparted by the operator. Add in a panicked passenger there is no constant to guage from. Add in changing trail conditions weekly from weather, no tool can replace your eyes.

Either you enjoy the off road and the challenges it supplies or stick to the fire roads.

 

[Bruce4795]

I've been lurking for some time, as long as the BBS website would allow. Now I own a P-500. I appreciate your trying to show tip angle and how to figure it out. I have to say, it's a bit obtuse.
Also, You've said there's a sticker on the machine stating a tipping angle. Mine's a 2015 model. I haven't found any such sticker, where is it? I also haven't found anything like that in the the official dealer's maintenance manual or the owner's manual.
I've also discovered a big difference in perceived stability depending on tire pressure. I wonder how any sticker that makes an absolute claim can account for that.

Regarding aftermarket inclinometers, I'm dubious, have been for years. Most are simply plum-bobs in bearings. Electronically, so are those in smart-phones, where accelerometers are used.

Where can I find an accurate system that I can rely on? Also, what math can I rely on? Someone says tip angle for a stock P-500 is a shave more than 33 degrees. What does that mean in the real world?

On area trails that I would find mild on my (very long gone, stolen, in fact) Yamaha Tri-Moto 125 easily ridden, in winter on my snowmobile, laughably easy, I sweat bullets trying not to let my geriatric father hit the dirt coming 'round a left-hand bend. It can't be all that bad, it just feels that way. Mostly I expect it's because the P-500 is relatively tall and narrow, and I can't lean into the turn. I'd like to have hard data.

BTW, I have the original OEM option plastic roof. With it, my P-500 is just shorter than my Father's 3/4 Chevy truck, a bit taller than my old Ford pick-up, and about the height of my FJ-55 Land Cruiser on 30.5" tires. I never felt afraid of rolling my beloved FJ-55. It's 68" wide, I guess that's the difference (I imagine the center of gravity must be much higher than the P-500).

I don’t think the early models had a sticker. They also had a bit more ground clearance so their roll over angle would have been a bit less or more tippy. Keep in mind this roll over angle is for a static situation. If you are on a steep side slope and doing okay, that can become a roll over situation if your uphill tire hits a rock or if the downhill tire drops into a rut.
The roll over angle also applies to cornering on level ground at speed. I recommend the inclinometer in the attached photo ( Lev-O-Gage).

It works for high speed cornering as well as side slopes, is used for sailing and is accurate and simple.

The Pioneer is a very light machine and notice the CG is a few inches above the rack. Most of the machine weight is below the rack so the engineers used a fully loaded machine with two people and a heavily loaded rack in their analysis. That is why the CG seems wrong at first glance. Try and keep heavy loads lower on the rack or on the floor of the passenger side if solo. Avoid mounting a spare tire high on the machine.

As you noted, width has a huge impact on roll over angle. Tire pressure has minimal impact on roll over angle from a static perspective. It can help dynamically since it would tend to soften impact loads that could tip one over on a side slope.

Use spacers if you want more stability, especially if using taller tires.

I hope this helps.

 

[Splorin]

I'm too busy paying attention to my line and where I'm puttin my tires to even think of glancing at a gauge thingy. Most rollovers are completely unexpected, 'I didn't see that root', 'that rock was slick', 'never saw that coming'.....

 

[Bruce4795]

I'm too busy paying attention to my line and where I'm puttin my tires to even think of glancing at a gauge thingy. Most rollovers are completely unexpected, 'I didn't see that root', 'that rock was slick', 'never saw that coming'.....

correct, you don’t want to focus on any gage in difficult driving situations. I’ve learned to glance at my tilt gage when slopes get critical as a check since I find the machine will do more than I think it can. As you noted so well, in a dynamic situation a rock or rut can easily throw you over in an otherwise acceptable slope. With my 62 inch width now my pucker factor usually kicks in way before the machine will flip! Hoping you keep the shine side up!

 

[FlyingPot8oh]

The tip scale cards included with new machines are conducted under controlled conditions, on a SMOOTH table, Motionless with no forward inertia etc. as in a "Real World " scenario.

Inclinometers - what they read is what you get. Gravity is a constant, that said the most sensitive I have seen are the digital ones in VIRB cameras which use a digital gyroscope just like smartphones. I have never been in a real world situation where I could be bothered to look at that driving sketchy off camber.

Experience and seat of the pants feeling should guide you, if it looks or makes you feel unsafe and no route to turn into the hill going up or down hill going down then its not worth it. No magic # on any tool will replace common sense.

Real World situations involve rough terrain that is unpredictable, and inertia imparted by the operator. Add in a panicked passenger there is no constant to guage from. Add in changing trail conditions weekly from weather, no tool can replace your eyes.

Either you enjoy the off road and the challenges it supplies or stick to the fire roads.

Um, but "gravity" is not a constant. If the sensor is pointing to the highest force, that will include so-called "centrifugal force." If you were to read an inclinometer inside a NASCAR racer at speed in turn 3 at Daytona, it would point straight at the incline or maybe higher, not to the ground.

I understand these complexities, I understand the so-called, "Pucker Factor" (boy do I, boats, snowmobiles, whatever, it's always there). But from my experience, I think I'm being a bit too cautious. One sits relatively high in the P-500, and I think that gives a false sense of tippy-dread (to coin a phrase). I'd like to know more about the machine's true limits without having to break it to find them.

Finally... Dude, what's with the insult in your last line? Did you really need to include that? "Fire roads" are... just roads, where I come from. I bought a SxS because it should be able to do things and go places that the stuff I already have can't. The terrain I live with is challenge enough, it's not about trying to see how stuck I can get in and then out, it's about going places and seeing things, maybe shooting at some food, BTW, without expectation of support. I don't have rich friends with big equipment to pull me out when I get stupid. That big equipment wouldn't be able to get where I got stuck anyway. Also, with no cell phone access, I couldn't even ask for help.
When I go out, I expect to be on my own. I intend to return on my own. I need to know the capabilities and limitations of my equipment.

 

[FlyingPot8oh]

I'm too busy paying attention to my line and where I'm puttin my tires to even think of glancing at a gauge thingy. Most rollovers are completely unexpected, 'I didn't see that root', 'that rock was slick', 'never saw that coming'.....

Yeah, but perhaps with practice, "this doesn't look so good" may be informed by real numbers. I don't think installing a permanent gauge might be worth much "in situ" but if it's accurate, it may be a worthwhile learning tool. I'm pretty sure my machine can handle side-angles greater than what feel comfortable to me. I have three frames of reference on non-snow-covered ground where I have some experience: Full-sized road legal eqipment (trucks, jeeps, land-cruiser) motorcycles, and relatively small three-wheeled ATVs. I don't think any of these can truely prepare me for the sensations I feel in a P-500 in regards to stability.

 

[rickoshea]

i installed the level o gauge since the last time mine layed down for a nap.it gives me a good indication of what's ahead of me as i'm riding.when i hit around 25 degrees i know i need to be more cautious going forward and i don't need to keep referencing it,it becomes seat of the pants when i know i'm getting close to the edge,if you follow the way i'm drifting.i also installed it while i was not sitting in it.it squats a couple degrees when i'm seated.

 

[Mudder]

Only good thing was this looked like my P500. Most useful for workshop decoration.

 

[lee]

@lee's guide to the tip angle of a P500:

Too much:

Way too much:

There, easy to understand field guide for how much angle a P500 can handle.

 

[Mudder]

@lee's guide to the tip angle of a P500:

Too much:
View attachment 233392

Way too much:

View attachment 233393

There, easy to understand field guide for how much angle a P500 can handle.

Bubble off scale! Nice skid plate.

 

[trigger]

Yeah, if you're going to take up room on the dash of a P5, it needs to be something more useful. 😏

 

[FlyingPot8oh]

I don’t think the early models had a sticker. They also had a bit more ground clearance so their roll over angle would have been a bit less or more tippy. Keep in mind this roll over angle is for a static situation. If you are on a steep side slope and doing okay, that can become a roll over situation if your uphill tire hits a rock or if the downhill tire drops into a rut.
The roll over angle also applies to cornering on level ground at speed. I recommend the inclinometer in the attached photo ( Lev-O-Gage).View attachment 232705 It works for high speed cornering as well as side slopes, is used for sailing and is accurate and simple.

The Pioneer is a very light machine and notice the CG is a few inches above the rack. Most of the machine weight is below the rack so the engineers used a fully loaded machine with two people and a heavily loaded rack in their analysis. That is why the CG seems wrong at first glance. Try and keep heavy loads lower on the rack or on the floor of the passenger side if solo. Avoid mounting a spare tire high on the machine.

As you noted, width has a huge impact on roll over angle. Tire pressure has minimal impact on roll over angle from a static perspective. It can help dynamically since it would tend to soften impact loads that could tip one over on a side slope.

Use spacers if you want more stability, especially if using taller tires.

I hope this helps.

View attachment 232705

My underdsanding is that the singe-rate front springs of the early models also contribute to a less stable feeling on uneven ground, along with a stiffer ride. The rear anti-sway bar does too. I haven't disconnected the sway bar yet, and probably won't have a good chance to do effective comparative rides until after break-up. After market coil-overs on all four corners are definitely something that will be added at some point. Unfortunately, that can be a pretty expensive undertaking.

 

[Peter_72]

Mine felt way more unstable on the factory tires! I’m still running the factory wheels with a taller tire and the pucker factor is not as bad!

Those that have put one on its side know that even at a very slow speed it happens very sudden and unexpected

 

[Splorin]

FlyingPot8oh, I'm pretty much a dinosaur of wheeling and road rigs. Gubmint has banned all of the rigs I've owned. FJ-40, all CJ's 2 thru 8, Isuzu Trooper, Samurai. Properly suspended are better road riders also. P-5's are all about fitting where you can put them. I went from a wide SXS to these for that purpose ( and 5-speed). Everyone should widen their stance as needed and tire quality and shocks help immensely. The narrow cage for me is a huge plus too. Now, keepin my BX-22 on all four is a challenge 😲 😁

Forgot to mention I love pogo Tundras and Skandics. Tippy = nimble....

 

[Mudder]

Rolled my FJ-40, landed back on its tires. It had a real roll bar. P500 reminds me of a little FJ.

 

[JCart]

Calibrate the cell phone tape to dash, find side slope and run it up to uncomfortable puckerfest feeling review clinometer on phone. Calibrate your bodies internal clinometer by sitting in seat on side slope close to tipping, close eyes and remember the feeling. When I first got mine in fall of ‘14 did the above minus the phone clinometer. Son and I tried to push it over, couldn’t even get the wheels off the ground. Perhaps I’m too conservative, but thus far felt lotsa pucker just been lucky never tipped it over.... yet. I think 5-2 rims, radials tires and aftermarket shock makes it feel more planted too.
cheers,
j

 

[CID]

As has been said, tipover numbers provided by Honda are static. Once you've driven 100 feet, you know damn well that our inputs are dynamic. Nonetheless, having a tilt gauge gives me a known reference point - I've stayed up at X degrees, no reason to be freaking out at less degrees even if my butt is puckered tighter. Unfortunately, X is a wildly variable number as has also been said.

My point of reference -

 

[MidTN]

I purchased a Lev O Gage for sailing boats and screwed it to the dash using 3/16 inch stainless steel pan head fasteners with nylock nuts.

View attachment 106207 View attachment 106208

I have a similar setup using the Lev O Gauge on mine. I found it worked so well on my tractor when bush hogging on hills that the P500 needed one too. Best $10 Mod on my P500.

 

[FlyingPot8oh]

FlyingPot8oh, I'm pretty much a dinosaur of wheeling and road rigs. Gubmint has banned all of the rigs I've owned. FJ-40, all CJ's 2 thru 8, Isuzu Trooper, Samurai. Properly suspended are better road riders also. P-5's are all about fitting where you can put them. I went from a wide SXS to these for that purpose ( and 5-speed). Everyone should widen their stance as needed and tire quality and shocks help immensely. The narrow cage for me is a huge plus too. Now, keepin my BX-22 on all four is a challenge 😲 😁

Forgot to mention I love pogo Tundras and Skandics. Tippy = nimble....

My first snowmachine was an Elan. By comparison, my dad's first-gen Tundra LT was a Cadillac!

Here, we have odd laws that differ depending on who has jurisdiction over the land, and mostly it has to do with the weight of the vehicle, not its size. For example, I'm pretty sure the P-500 is too heavy for BLM managed trails, because they go by gross vehicle weight. State trail limits are also determined by weight, but it's less clear what they mean exactly. Advice from different State sources changes, which makes it even more confusing. My current understanding is that the P-500 is light enough to legally travel on state trails that are not designated "winter only" or "seasonal," because they go over muskeg or bog, or soft tundra. There are a few trails that defy regulation, or have special access grants, such as mining and logging roads. Others fall under "traditional use" which sometimes can include heavier vehicles.

Anyway, weight limitations aside, we have quite a few trees around here, and they're often close together. Sometimes nearly impossible to walk through. Most trails started out as dog-sled trails, then they were adapted to snowmachines, and later still, to three-wheeled ATVs. trails made to accomidate larger verhicles were usually just called "roads," which muddies the legal landscape even more, er, no pun intended. My P-500 is quite a bit larger than my old Yamaha Tri-Moto was. I want to keep it as narrow as I can for purely practical reasons, so that I can fit on the trail and through the trees, so I have to be careful about which modifications I choose.