P1000 Pioneer talon swap

[Pioneer_dj]

Ok so I’m searching for information on swapping talon motors trans sun trans into my pioneer. Will it work what needs to be done and has anybody done it? I have my pioneer sun trans motor and transmission still. It’s blown up. Just have the access to totaled talon that still runs and drives.

 

[Admin]

 

[P1K5Dave]

I don't know that anyone here has done a full swap, but if you go for it, give us the full documentation. I'd love to see it.

 

[GPR1500SC]

What is your goal?
Performance, or a better motor?
I have a Talon motor sitting in my Pioneer but is not done.

 

[Remington]

not 100% sure if it will without modsl? But @snuffnwhisky might know?

 

[Pioneer_dj]

What is your goal?
Performance, or a better motor?
I have a Talon motor sitting in my Pioneer but is not done.

I blown up the pioneer motor and have access to talon wrecked machine

 

[P1K5Dave]

If you can score a good deal on that wrecked Talon, you almost can't lose.

The first question is: will it bolt up? I haven't seen that addressed on this forum, but it seems like they'd have the same mounts.

If that works out, you've got the computer / electronics question. Since you'd have all of the Talon electronics, it'd seem like you can get there. It'd be interesting to see how deep that rabbit hole goes...

 

[CumminsPusher]

What is your goal?
Performance, or a better motor?
I have a Talon motor sitting in my Pioneer but is not done.

Is it fairly plug and play are you thinking?

 

[ChadD]

🤔

 

[HBarlow]

I would love to read the posts and see the photos of the Talon engine and transmission transplant into a Pioneer.

Talon and Pioneer seem to share the Honda Africa Twin 1000cc motorcycle engine but I have no idea if it's a basic bolt-in replacement.

 

[Remington]

I would love to read the posts and see the photos of the Talon engine and transmission transplant into a Pioneer.

Talon and Pioneer seem to share the Honda Africa Twin 1000cc motorcycle engine but I have no idea if it's a basic bolt-in replacement.

View attachment 314090

Unfortunately, I seen in a recent post by @HondaTech that the Africa Twin although motor wise has similarities, its the DCT trans/drivetrain and something else that makes it a good size negative that the AT will not work in P1

and using the search option generated the result…

P1000 - Africa Twin Swap

Hey everyone, been out of touch a while. Still have my 1000-3 and am sure this has been discussed before, but for old times sake, will the Africa Twin engine bolt in the 1000cc machines? There are some on eGay that are reasonably priced. Anyway, hope you all have a very blessed 2022!

hondasxs.com

 

[HBarlow]

Thanks. I missed that thread. I stand corrected.

I was hoping @HondaTech or another Honda tech would respond and clarify the issue. My thanks to @@hondatech for answering the question.

Unfortunately, the definitive answer that ends the discussion is often not the answer we were hoping for.

Apparently the Honda Africa Twin, the Talon, and the Pioneer 1000 all use liquid-cooled 1000 cc twin engines but the same 1000ccc twin.

 

[P1K5Dave]

Yeah, the Africa Twin as installed in motorcycles is a no-go for a swap, apparently. Even if it could be mounted, the torque/hp is all wrong for a SxS.

But the Talon and Pioneer motors are based on the Africa Twin, and should be quite close (or the same?) dimensionally as far as bolting up.

 

[P1K5Dave]

@GPR1500SC so you have one you're working on? What have you learned thus far? You should start a thread and show us what you've got going on...

 

[HBarlow]

Yeah, the Africa Twin as installed in motorcycles is a no-go for a swap, apparently. Even if it could be mounted, the torque/hp is all wrong for a SxS.

But the Talon and Pioneer motors are based on the Africa Twin, and should be quite close (or the same?) dimensionally as far as bolting up.

Yes, I think it's likely the Talon and Pioneer power plants are the same or at least very nearly the same.

 

[GPR1500SC]

You

The only thing I seen that wasn't plug and play was the sub transmission I just pulled the Talon dowel pin out and bolted it up, Buuuut the gasket contact is very thin right there I used gasket maker there to help it seal better I don't think it will not be a problem but time will tell.
You have to use all the Pioneer wire harness nothing will plug into the Talon harness, and Pioneer thermostat outlet, and the oil fill is remote mounted on the Talon.
If you are after Talon performance you are going to need to modify the entire exhaust system as the Pioneer is smaller.

 

[GPR1500SC]

I posted these Before here is a good comparison to help understand why the Talon's top end power is much better.

 

[Remington]

The only thing I seen that wasn't plug and play was the sub transmission I just pulled the Talon dowel pin out and bolted it up, Buuuut the gasket contact is very thin right there I used gasket maker there to help it seal better I don't think it will not be a problem but time will tell.
You have to use all the Pioneer wire harness nothing will plug into the Talon harness, and Pioneer thermostat outlet, and the oil fill is remote mounted on the Talon.
If you are after Talon performance you are going to need to modify the entire exhaust system as the Pioneer is smaller.

You will also need a Talon ECU.
the Valve body in the Talon motor is different and some timing i belive? There are some other differences as well. When I had a Talon ECU put in my pioneer for some performance upgrades, Snuff had to get into the Honda database $$$ to make some changes in order for it to work with the pioneer and some things had to be omitted/no longer used that i ignore but some might hate. It was a very complex process to line the files up. To put it into prospective, the Pioneer ECU will NOT be compatible with some of the internal control's to that Talon engine without updates.

 

[HBarlow]

Nothing is simple now. We live in a computer-controlled age where programming controls everything and is beyond the ability of owners.

In my long-ago youth increasing performance was simple shade-tree mechanic work. Easy horsepower gains were achieved with twin carburetors and dual exhaust with free-flowing mufflers. To go big we could increase compression by milling head sufraces and replacing factory camshafts with high lift long duration grinds. Advancing ignition timing was a simple matter of roating the distributor to fire earlier in the combustion cycle.

A simple ring gear and pinion change in the differential could dramatically improve quarter mile acceleration.

For major power increase we could bore engine blocks out larger and install bigger pistons and even replace crankshafts and rods with to increase stroke.

No one had ever heard of a computer or programming in those days.

Life was simple then.

 

[Remington]

Life was simple then.

Yup, I remember!
I was in college for engine building about 5 years before you needed a computer to do all of it. There was a small amount at the time. Then a majority of what i just learned had to be tweaked.

 

[906UP]

I need a wrecked Talon so I can transplant the engine/trans in our P5