Rumor: Honda Pioneer 5 seat or a 1100cc SxS!

[icegod]

I have owned a sxs for the past 5 years. I had a CanAm for the last 3 years and it was nothing but problems for me. The biggest issue i have with the bigger machines is not being able to go where the 4 wheelers are going, in this neck of the woods, me and my CanAm (when it wasn't in the shop) couldn't get very far in the deep woods when out for a rip with my buddies. I got rid of the CanAm and purchased a P5 WOW i absolutely love it!!!!!
Not sure what your talking about when you say it's not fun to drive not to mention the P5 can go through anything or up and down any terrain. The 50" width allows me to go where any 4 wheeler goes, and the ride is fantastic. I would highly recommend it to anyone.
Sure if you want to limit yourself to the open areas with the bigger bulkier machines, like i did for the past 5 years, you will still have fun. But if you really want to experience the ultimate in sxs adventure by being able to go anywhere at anytime, down the narrow trails without starting up a chainsaw, then go with the P5 you wont be disappointed.

 

[Admin]

 

[ksss]

I agree that a 50" gives you more riding options, especially for those of us where 50" only trails are common. Polaris, Artic Cat and Honda are the only OEM's that offer 50" machines. Surprisingly CanAm does not yet offer anything for this market. The fun to ride comment is certainly subjective and there is no 100% right answer for everyone, that is why there are options for everyone. Comparing the fun factor of a 50" trail machine verse the larger, wider machines is " a different strokes for different folks" kind of argument. Although I personally agree that for the riding we do, a 50" is the best choice. As general performance characteristics and how that can equate to the "fun factor," my opinion is that for most riders it holds true that more power equals more fun, more speed equals more fun and durability equals the ability to have more fun, styling and comfort/ergonomics are perhaps even more subjective. I think the Polaris 900 Trail (50") covers all of these, the durability portion I am not sure yet, but you don't hear of a lot of issues at this point, however it is early. I am anxious to see what Honda reveals here shortly, I am holding off on the 900 Trail until I see what Honda has come up with. Hopefully it is a home run and not a walk or bunt like I equate the P5 to be. I would like to see Honda take the segment leaders head on in performance and looks.

 

[icegod]

Yes 50" is the only way to go at least in these parts. I looked at both the Polaris and Artic Cat, and was able to take the Cat for a test ride. Needless to say i wasn't a fan of the Artic Cat. As for the Polaris it was a very nice machine, but in my past life i had a couple Polaris sleds and well lets just say i'll never own another Polaris period. As you mentioned different strokes for different folks, where i venture there is no way in hell you could travel much faster than 30 - 40 mph and that would only be for short distances, it's extremely rugged terrain and you have to be paying attention most of the time or you could end up in a bit of a mess. Speed wont help you out here, but what will help you is dependability, reliability, and a flat out tough machine. If you want fast and pretty 50" sxs than go with the other brands. But if you want tough, reliable, and dependable go with the P5.

 

[ksss]

The issue of speed and it's importance frequently comes up and for good reason. I live in Idaho where SXS's can be licensed for the road (certain roads) and of course living in a State with more Federal land than nearly any other State we have access to some incredible trail riding opportunities. While trail riding we don't go fast, but we also have sand dune riding available to us and we run them on the roads here. So SXS's tend to be used in a lot of different types of riding, at least here. I think the adage "A lot can always do a little, but a little can never do a lot" applies. I may not use my 55 mph top end on my RZR scrambling up a 12K mountain top, but I will when we are moving to the next set of trails or running down the road to borrow a cup of sugar from the neighbor. Building a machine that only goes 38 mph may be more than adequate for trail riding, but considering what these things cost and the varied applications they are used for, why build a machine that is so limited, especially when the competition does not? This, in my opinion, is what Honda needs to realize on these next machines.

 

[ohanacreek]

.....So SXS's tend to be used in a lot of different types of riding, at least here. I think the adage "A lot can always do a little, but a little can never do a lot" applies....

+1

Agreed doesn't need a lot more maybe a 4 speed and a bit more power to stay in a higher gear when climbing a LONG steep grade like a lot of the ROADS at Windrock. I feel the 700 has plenty for the trail and work tasks, but pulling a long steep road it needs just a bit more to stay in a higher gear.

 

[icegod]

Quality and reliability has always been Honda's top priority, whether it be a lawn mower or luxury jet. This is why the resale value has remained high on all Honda products. Honda had a slogan which has been used in many of their campaign ads over the years "in every Honda is a Honda engine". Sure one could make a golf cart go fast if one wanted to, and by looking at some of the other brands out there, that is pretty well what they have done. The P5 is just that, it's a 500 man, it's not made to go 60 mph, it's just not going to happen. Lets assume the next generation Pioneer series does evolve into a P11, of course it will have plenty enough power to get you down the road at a fair rate of speed, it's running considerably more cc's. There will always be the consumer who wants fast and pretty over anything else, that's what drives the market. The question is, if and when the P11 comes off the production line will it be pretty enough for those who don't know a golf cart from quality engineering?

 

[ohanacreek]

I forget where I read it, "supposedly" there are 2-3 additional Honda SXSs on the way.

If you look at part numbers for the Honda products lines they follow a pattern.

However with the SxSs they stray from the pattern.

BR HL1
P700 HL3
P500 HL5

Where are 2 and 4???

Could suppose a 6 as well since the BR has been discontinued.

I think Honda has a few new products they are bringing to the market. The 500 and 700 were easy because they had the motors already designed from their ATV lineup. So design a vehicle around them.

I'll wager they are bringing 2 or 3 new engines to the lineup. Probably 999cc and under as per the ROV guidelines. They will be Honda dependable when we see them, I'm sure they have some lucky guys testing the crap out of them at a Honda facility somewhere in the US. Tearing them up so we never do.

Then over the next couple of years I will have to sell my wife on just why we need to buy the new Pioneer 1000 5 seater( if between now and then we end up with three kids it will be a much easier sell)

 

[ksss]

Quality and reliability has always been Honda's top priority, whether it be a lawn mower or luxury jet. This is why the resale value has remained high on all Honda products. Honda had a slogan which has been used in many of their campaign ads over the years "in every Honda is a Honda engine". Sure one could make a golf cart go fast if one wanted to, and by looking at some of the other brands out there, that is pretty well what they have done. The P5 is just that, it's a 500 man, it's not made to go 60 mph, it's just not going to happen. Lets assume the next generation Pioneer series does evolve into a P11, of course it will have plenty enough power to get you down the road at a fair rate of speed, it's running considerably more cc's. There will always be the consumer who wants fast and pretty over anything else, that's what drives the market. The question is, if and when the P11 comes off the production line will it be pretty enough for those who don't know a golf cart from quality engineering?

I get the quality and reliability aspect, that is what Honda hangs their hat on, but they need more than that. It should not be an either or proposition (quality or performance). I also realize that Honda put a 475 CC engine in a SxS that weighs a 1000 pounds dry, then put a manual 5 speed tranny in it, gave it a crazy amount of travel, something like 5.9 inches about half of what the other guys offer. Your right it is not made to go 60 mph, actually they can only hit 40 mph with a tail wind. Who's fault is that? I have said all of this before, so I will paraphrase, you cant come into a market six years too late, that is dominated by higher performing machines, get owned in every performance criteria and call that a successful entry into a very competitive trail machine market. Claiming "Legendary Honda Quality" only gets you so far, currently that is at the bottom of the marketshare roster (granted they are new to the market, but I am not seeing a lot of enthusiasm for this machine, actually I don't see any, and UTVs are a big deal here). The competition is far from being glorified golf carts, if you think that, you have your head in the sand. Honda's "Quality engineering" should be able to deliver a machine that can run with the competition and be reliable. Honda is capable of a much better machine than is the P5. They have a parts bin that other OEM's would love to have access to, such as the engine out of the Rincon, the tranny from the Rubicon, and the offroad knowledge to put a quality suspension under a SXS. That is the making of a successful trail machine. As a side note, on the next machines, Honda needs to spend some additional time in the exterior design room. That tall front end grafted to a Rubicon rear end is a mess. Looks are important, not THE most important, but important never the less. If your going to take the time to build it, at least take the time to make it look like something you WANT to pay $10K for.

 

[icegod]

I think it looks awesome and so do many other people. Have you ever driven one? and yes if you have any mechanical knowledge there are some glorified golf carts out there. The haters are gonna hate and that's fine, but until you have driven one don't knock it.

 

[scott]

@ksss Honda is way behind i agree, but give them time i think they are getting ready to jump into the market in a big way. The 500 is lacking in the suspension i agree. I rode with 3 a few weekend back. The manual 5 speed tranny was a great idea. I hope other UTV makers pick that up. I wish my 700 had it. The 500 did surprise me it is very capable and very nimble. I would like to have one for my teens to drive. Wish it had better suspension and diff lock tho. Maybe them things will happen in future models. They do need to add storage to any future model too. I am looking forward to see what comes next. Love this new site upgrade.

 

[ohanacreek]

The 500 was a quick development, less than 2 years start to finish, Honda had to use some existing parts to do that you can't develop a machine then develop the new assembly line to produce it that quickly. New motors take time to develop and produce. Since Honda does not have a 999cc SXS motor that was time they needed to develop. Sure you could stick a high RPM sport bike motor in there and as fun as it would be to run 100mph and be stupid in. You need a torquier motor for trail and utility use.

There are other machines in the works that will be produced on new or modified assembly lines. The existing motors are adequate for use, but the issue is when you compare them to what is available. They are outclassed by the 1000cc class motors.

All that proves that Honda has some catching up to do, they are going to need to develop new machines a year or two faster than Polaris to get back in the lead, it's going to take time. Unless they had been thinking 10years ahead which is hard to do now with the speed at which technology changes they would not have been able to produce the groundbreaking SXS everyone wanted 2 years ago when the 700 came out. They are also going to need to work with the aftermarket, a lot of people will buy a unit based on what they can have a dealer add to it before they get it. I understand not everyone wants to personalize it as much as some of us(me) do or have the know how to do it. Not a bad thing, just a fact, Honda is going to need to either produce add ons like other Manufactures do or they are going to lose sales based soley on that. Honda probably has had someone do that study and actually consider how many sales they would lose based on that, reviewed the cost benefit analysis and made that decision already.

I love my 700-4, my only complaint is it needs a few more HP to keep it in the next higher gear when climbing long steep grades.

I have been able to pull anything I wanted to pull and carry anything I needed to carry, when I trail ride I have been able to go just about anywhere I wanted to. My issues were not engine related but the fact that I needed 20" of clearance and 35" tires to get over some obstacles. I would have bought a Ranger not a RZR though so I am not comparing this to a RZR I did not expect it to be one, I didn't NEED a RZR.

I do hope Honda comes out with a RZR killing MONSTER. I hate Polaris almost as much as I hate GM but the GM conversation/rant can be had later and via PM if someone wants to hear about it.

 

[ksss]

Ice I do have a "bit" of mechanical knowledge just a bit. I am not a hater of Honda, I have owned countless Honda 3-4 wheelers over my riding life (35 years and counting), I am actually a die hard Honda ATV fan. However I am not blind and I am not happy with Honda laying down on their SXS project. I am glad you like the way the 500 looks, someone needs to. Unfortunately there are not as many as there needs to be that dig that mess. I will not drive one, I will not own one. I don't need to, I see it's shortcomings and I am not spending that kind of money on a half stepping effort. Ice, these machines have barely made a ripple in the SXS market. Buyers are speaking with their wallets, and the P5 is not the machine being selected.

Ohanacreek, I agree that Honda has some catching up to do. I am most disappointed that they did not field a more competitive machine to start with. I get the two year development time frame, they should have started this project years ago. I am waiting for the RZR killing MONSTER, seriously, I will buy one as soon as it hits the ground. I used to hate Polaris, I don't hate them anymore, but, I don't have a lot of respect for them either. I will say however that they are innovative and Honda could learn a thing or two from Polaris in that regard. We have a deeper divide between us with pickups, I am digging my 2015 Chevy 3500HD CC it is an outstanding pickup.

Scott, I am disappointed in the 5 speed manual because I think the Hondamatic tranny out of the Rubicon would have been a better choice. Speaking of innovative, why not have both options available on the machine like Honda does on their ATV's? The suspension we agree needs work to be competitive.

 

[admin]

Not to get off track. But...
Though the Hondamatic was butter Smooooth.. it was a lugger. Not as in speed or power but in size. It was a heavy motor dry, then add the 6 quarts of oil and you have one heavy unit. Though, I will agree, It did handle well. Switching to a dual clutch, If tuned and timed correctly should provide the flawless transmission Honda needs to run the parallel twin coming soon to a dealer near you!

*edit - quarts not gallons.. lol

 

[ohanacreek]

Ksss

Honda put out two machines in roughly 3 years time, that in itself is kinda impressive. No matter when they started unless they were the first, someone would have the opinion they were too late.

I agree they're late to the game, but half an effort I don't agree. Both motors are good motors, good place to start. Look at Honda product lines, all of them from mowers to the NSX. The top end machine is always amazing and then you have some mid level machines that are pretty stinking awesome.

My one and only car (I've always been a truck guy)was a 2011 Acura TL SH-AWD the fit and finish, the design, looks, performance and all around build quality were TOP NOTCH. I wish I'd never sold it. I wish I won the lotto today I'd go buy another. I did not mind taking it to the dealer for the oil change they were incredibly polite, helpful, and SERVICE oriented. I drove 85k miles before I needed brake service. I had 2 sets of tires in that time frame(did I mention it was FUN to DRIVE)
Did it have EVERYTHING the Lexus had? Nope couldn't get a V-8 and the NAV wasn't touch screen. Thing was that car WORKED. My buddies Lexus was smaller a little slower 15k more and his touchscreen was horrid.

That is Hondas philosophy, long lasting quality, mine Pioneer is out of warranty so I'll say this now.

I've beat on it. I pulled 256 @40' WHOLE pine trees with it. Some of those were stuck so I snatched on them to get them loose. At one point you could see it hooked to a pine tree on google maps. (They've updated the image) I've had it tached out for 10-15 mins climbing the long grade at wind rock 3 days in a row.

Mine is [HASHTAG]#208[/HASHTAG] so it was a first run, you're not supposed to buy an early model. "They have issues".

All that to say I think Honda has some competitive machines on the way and I really hope there is a top tier model like an NSX. I think you are going to find more TLs though', that has always been Hondas design philosophy. I think they will fit the needs of 80% of the market, and I think they might be fine loosing that 20%

The way they have always been build a long term pipeline of customers. Not sell a person a new machine every two years. I tried "other" brands of motorcycles when I was in college cause they were cheap. When I could finally afford to buy a Honda, I got to ride more because I was fixing less. I remembered that, I'll never buy another brand.

For example this is my LAST GM product I've had issues from day one and they won't do anything about it. No error code no problem, go away now. My last GM had issues but I bought it used, so I gave it a pass. The one before that issues, but also used. Ford sells an F-150 on average every 26 seconds.
Chevy a Silverado every 138. I wanted a Ford, I got a MUCH better price on the Chevy, wish I'd spent more. The Chevy looks better but the guys at the office with Fords haven't had issues. The Chevy guys have and the Fords have more bells whistles and widgets.

I have almost 70k on it now. It's a piece. Several people I know and work with bought the same platform in various trims and in GMC as well they have the same issues I have.

If Honda made a V-8 truck I'd give my Chevy away and buy the Honda. Hear THAT Honda?

Back to my point, after a detour and a rant, Honda is long term quality, they will sacrifice performance for longevity. I have had no issues with my Pioneer that I can attribute to Honda or design(the dealer I bought it from left a piece of rag...VERY PREDOMINANT in there shop, things were everywhere) and it caused an issue with shifting, to their credit they found it fixed it and no issues since.

I broke the aftermarket exhaust tip and the skid plates are pathetic but while they may have been flimsy( which is why I made my own) I never broke anything.

 

[icegod]

I'm with you Ohana Creek!!!!! I have had so many Honda products in my 51 years (33 as an adult) it's crazy when I think about it. Civics, Del Sol, CRV's and currently a 2014 Pilot touring, three wheelers, four wheelers, lawn mower, snow blower, gas generator, line trimmer, outboard, and now my P5. None of these products have ever let me down and most I'm still using today. Living in New Brunswick Canada where a typical winter day is -20 with an average annual snow fall of 12'-14' not to mention 30+degrees in the summer months with humidity that would knock you on your ass, and all of these products have handled it with ease! So take your piece of %&*@ RZR because it's fast and pretty and any other brand out there that's not a Honda and keep trying to convince yourself it's better than a Honda for this and that reason. In 5,10,15,20 years from now somebody somewhere if not me will be riding the P5 I currently own, while the other brands will have probably been recycled a couple times into various other products. In every Honda is a Honda engine

 

[BamaBoundSteve]

Ohanacreek,

I have a 2006 Nissan Titan with 132,000 miles on it. It has been a great truck with very, very few problems. Now that Nissan offers more configurations with you should take a look at one when you're in the market next time.

I had a sensor go bad at 75,000 miles on the master cylinder and my catalytic converter crack, the later was warrentied.

Other than that no brake or differential issues that had plagued the first run Titans.

As far as GM, my two brother-in-law ' s and my sister-in-law ' s husband "were" die hard GM guy's. After they each had bought new trucks and we're beyond disappointed by the issues they were having. One of them relied on his truck for his business so when the truck was down he lost money. So, two new Ford owners and one Honda owner....very happy I might add.

 

[ksss]

Ice if you want to have an intelligent conversation, I am all for it. However if you want to act like the village idiot, you will need to find someone else to have that conversation with.

Ohana, Two machines in 3 years would be more impressive if the machines were competitive (I think the 700 is closer than the 500 to being competitive). They simply are not. I don't think that is even debatable. As a Honda customer for years, I had become used to Honda's slow reaction to the market. I also put faith in the quality of the product over the speed to market with their machines. However in the case of the SXS they simply underestimated the demand and the size of the this market. I am convinced that Honda only reacted at all to the SXS market after watching their considerable share of the 4 wheeler market shrink at the same rate that Polaris' marketshare in the SXS market increased. Honda had to put two machines into the market in rapid fashion. The Big Red was a sales failure. I think the 700 compares better to the Ranger (market leader) but still struggles. The P500 is a complete miss. We can make excuses for why that is but at the end of the day, it is what it is. Guys can talk s*** about Polaris, CanAm or Artic Cat but they all have more marketshare than does Honda in the SXS market. Until Honda gets serious about building competitive performing machines, the marketshare numbers are not going to change. Honda certainly has the know-how to build a QUALITY machine that can PERFORM with anything else in the market. Instead of making excuses for them, Honda customers should demand better.

 

[bigc]

NO MORE CALLING OTHER FORUM MEMBERS NAMES OR PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST OTHER MEMBERS WILL BE ALLOWED

 

[joeymt33]

For me the pioneer 700 competes with the Polaris and can-am. It fits my use perfectly for what I need a vehicle for. I would go as far to say that Polaris and can-am can't compete with Honda in my needs for an off-road vehicle.

One has to set the basis for discussion before choosing a best vehicle.

I need a vehicle that's easy to get in and out of. A tight turning radius. Short wheel base. Four seats. Dump bed. And around $10k. I love this vehicle, it far exceeds my needs for traction and speed and it will work hard with with out failure.

If I lived in the world of sand dunes and that style of riding I wouldn't choose the Honda. Each vehicle is better in their own world.

Joe

 

[icegod]

First of all ksss because someone makes a good point that you have a hard time arguing against there is no need to call names, this isn't grade school son.
Secondly nobody on this forum with the exception of you cares one bit about market shares. We come here to interact intelligently about our sxs's, mainly our Honda sxs's. So you can talk all you want about how much volume Can Am, Polaris, Artic Cat are putting out in sales because you read it somewhere. Nobody cares man!!!!!
Once again my question to you is, have you ever driven a P500 ? That's what I thought.
The P5 is a blast to drive and it goes anywhere the bigger machines are going, sure maybe it's not getting there as fast, but it's getting there and because it's a Honda it's getting me home more than I could say about my Can Am. I'm going places the bigger machines cant even attempt to go. The real beauty of the P5 is the fact I'm travelling on these extremely narrow trails that I could never travel before with the Can Am. I can honestly say it is a much more exciting ride than my Can Am was.
You can read as much as you want about the mechanical aspects, or the market shares, but until you have actually driven one don't knock it son. In Every Honda Is A Honda Engine