Snorkel & Supercharger

[SuperYeti]

So, I've decided to carry on where Lynn left off. I've started ordering the parts to build myself an electric supercharger for my 2015 700-4. So far, I have these on order.

- A 24A esc motor for RC Hovercrafts etc: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/201404975123?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
- A 30A ESC Motor controller: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/291354079260?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
- K&N with pre-filter

These are the other components I still need to get
- HMF Swamp Series Exhaust
- Power Commander V with auto tune, and MAP sensor for boost dependent ignition and fuel control

My plan for controlling the fan, is to use data from the MAP sensor so I can determine the boost pressure, and then have a circuit that lets me set the maximum boost pressure, and a small microcontroller to automatically increase the fan RPM to keep it at that max boost. I'm thinking somewhere in the 5-8PSI range should be good, theoretically from the numbers provided by the seller that fan should be able to generate somewhere around 16PSI at 24 amps and about 700CFM of airflow. I'm going to have to do a bit of testing once the fan shows up to qualify my hypothesis.

The thing I'm still undecided on is snorkel size. I know most guys have been running 2" snorkels here, but the fan has a 70MM (2 3/4") housing on it, and I was thinking 3" might be better, with a 4" to 3" reducing coupling with a screen for the intake which "should" add a bit of a ram air to the intake at higher speeds. From the people who have already done a snorkel, do you think there's room for 3" pipe where everyone is routing their 2" snorkels?

The only thing I'm currently unsure of is if I can split that MAP sensor and take a reading in my circuit, and still have the Power Commander V read the sensor as well, or if I'm going to need to make my circuit read the MAP data, and pass it through to the Power Commander, any insight or advise on that would be appreciated.

 

[Admin]

 

[Lynn]

Ok I'm following this project SuperYeti. My intake is 3" all the way but I don't have a snorkel so it was easy to do. Good luck and have fun.

 

[bagotaco]

Very interesting. I'm watching

 

[bagotaco]

I did 2" but there's room for a 3" here's a pic of mine (I still need to make the bracket for the top)

 

[Tflynn]

Very cool! I'm excited to see if you get similar results as Lynn. Ill be watching this thread as well!

 

[SuperYeti]

Ok I'm following this project SuperYeti. My intake is 3" all the way but I don't have a snorkel so it was easy to do. Good luck and have fun.

Thanks Lynn. Since I don't have the PCV yet, and probably going to be a month until the wife won't leave me if i spend more on my toys, I'll probably start by setting up a pressure testing setup for the fan, so I can prototype the fan controller and MAP sensor integration. This will also allow me to determine what actual performance I may see out of this, and determine if the idea is even going to work. Once I have the controller prototyped, I'll probably get a few test boards made, and start working on an enclosure to water proof it. I then need to come up with another enclosure for all the power, and USB network I'm creating for the water proof tablet I'm installing for GPS, and backup camera, and also on the fly PCV programming/monitoring. Lots to do lol.

 

[SuperYeti]

I did 2" but there's room for a 3" here's a pic of mine (I still need to make the bracket for the top)

Thanks bagotaco. Could I bother you to take/post some pictures with the bed raised so I can see how you tied it all into the airbox?

 

[bobbyhill]

I had planed to do the same thing this winter! I Guess I'll wait till you Iron it out! Good luck and I'll be checking in!

 

[Hondasxs]

Yep, you have my attention. This is something I should of tried when Lynn posted long ago. Good luck.

 

[Simpleman]

So, I've decided to carry on where Lynn left off. I've started ordering the parts to build myself an electric supercharger for my 2015 700-4. So far, I have these on order.

- A 24A esc motor for RC Hovercrafts etc: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/201404975123?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
- A 30A ESC Motor controller: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/291354079260?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
- K&N with pre-filter

These are the other components I still need to get
- HMF Swamp Series Exhaust
- Power Commander V with auto tune, and MAP sensor for boost dependent ignition and fuel control

My plan for controlling the fan, is to use data from the MAP sensor so I can determine the boost pressure, and then have a circuit that lets me set the maximum boost pressure, and a small microcontroller to automatically increase the fan RPM to keep it at that max boost. I'm thinking somewhere in the 5-8PSI range should be good, theoretically from the numbers provided by the seller that fan should be able to generate somewhere around 16PSI at 24 amps and about 700CFM of airflow. I'm going to have to do a bit of testing once the fan shows up to qualify my hypothesis.

The thing I'm still undecided on is snorkel size. I know most guys have been running 2" snorkels here, but the fan has a 70MM (2 3/4") housing on it, and I was thinking 3" might be better, with a 4" to 3" reducing coupling with a screen for the intake which "should" add a bit of a ram air to the intake at higher speeds. From the people who have already done a snorkel, do you think there's room for 3" pipe where everyone is routing their 2" snorkels?

The only thing I'm currently unsure of is if I can split that MAP sensor and take a reading in my circuit, and still have the Power Commander V read the sensor as well, or if I'm going to need to make my circuit read the MAP data, and pass it through to the Power Commander, any insight or advise on that would be appreciated.

I did 2" pipe... Not sure about 3" unless you have A LOT more bends in the pipe. As far as the power commander check with Dobeck before you buy... Dobeck has a load based tune versers the power commander. Go to their web site and look at the info tabs and you'll be surprised at the info they give on their product verses the power commander. I don't know how it differs for your set up but well worth the look. Also I didn't run a screen on the air inlet for big debris... I feel that it blocks air flow... Frankly there is no need with a good air filter such as a K &N with a pre filter to do that... Most big stuff ends up in the bottom of the air housing and with the snorkel up high dust is cut way down!.... Just my experience. Good luck on the build!

 

[bagotaco]

Thanks bagotaco. Could I bother you to take/post some pictures with the bed raised so I can see how you tied it all into the airbox?

No problem. I'll get them tomorrow

 

[SuperYeti]

I did 2" pipe... Not sure about 3" unless you have A LOT more bends in the pipe. As far as the power commander check with Dobeck before you buy... Dobeck has a load based tune versers the power commander. Go to their web site and look at the info tabs and you'll be surprised at the info they give on their product verses the power commander. I don't know how it differs for your set up but well worth the look. Also I didn't run a screen on the air inlet for big debris... I feel that it blocks air flow... Frankly there is no need with a good air filter such as a K &N with a pre filter to do that... Most big stuff ends up in the bottom of the air housing and with the snorkel up high dust is cut way down!.... Just my experience. Good luck on the build!

Thanks for the input @Simpleman. I did start out looking at the Dobeck, as that's what @spifyd used, but from the consensus on that thread, and from further research on what's available, the PCV makes the most sense because I can adjust the ignition timing maps. Spifyd used timing keys to adjust the base timing, but for optimum performance and longevity with turbo'd engines being able to adjust the timing is really important. I did a bunch more research last night, and it looks like once I can figure out where peak torque is made in the rpm band, you can actually start increasing timing until WOT to give maximum power and efficiency.

My concern with no filter, is if I have a unknown metal fan running in the intake at say 15k RPM, and something gets in there, it could cause catastrophic failure of the supercharger, I'd rather not experience what that's like if I don't have to lol.

 

[spifyd]

1200g = 2.5 pounds of thrust and that = 2.5 psi. if you can get it to make 2.5 pounds of boost. that means it has to do it under pressure. most fans wont make pressure. but if you can you will be a fuel controller. mine would lean out with the stock injector at 1 to 2 pounds of boost to the point of where you couldn't drive it.
2 pounds does make quit a difference. But again its a fan not a compressor so I am skeptical. but please prove me wrong.

 

[spifyd]

guy the way I tried the gas powered leave blower down the snorkel. no boost to the motor.no power gain.
I got a lot of Nabors looking though. but I don't think they we surprised

 

[classichonda]

I watched a mythbuster type show and they debunked using a fan in place of a true turbo. They sell fan kits online that claim big gains. What they found on the dyno is the fans give zero increase in power. As spifyd said, its a fan, not a compressor. A fan may move X amt of air, but that is in free space, not in an environment (engine intake) where there is massive restriction.

 

[SuperYeti]

1200g = 2.5 pounds of thrust and that = 2.5 psi. if you can get it to make 2.5 pounds of boost. that means it has to do it under pressure. most fans wont make pressure. but if you can you will be a fuel controller. mine would lean out with the stock injector at 1 to 2 pounds of boost to the point of where you couldn't drive it.
2 pounds does make quit a difference. But again its a fan not a compressor so I am skeptical. but please prove me wrong.

That's what I thought initially, then I took a look at some conversions between units, and the only one that made sense is 1200g/cm2, which converts to ~17psi. It's hard to say as the spec's aren't very clear. Since the fan is designed for lift, my theory is it will compress the air better than the standard bilge style air movers that Lynn was using. Worst case it should be able to provide maximum airflow that the engine can take, hopefully overcoming any loses related to the restrictions of the snorkel. I've planned to grab a Power Commander V, looks like it's the most versatile, and should provide the best programmability regardless of whether the fan works or not. Once the fan and ESC shows up, I'm going to start doing some testing, and will post my results on a test rig. Cheers.

 

[SuperYeti]

That's what I thought initially, then I took a look at some conversions between units, and the only one that made sense is 1200g/cm2, which converts to ~17psi. It's hard to say as the spec's aren't very clear. Since the fan is designed for lift, my theory is it will compress the air better than the standard bilge style air movers that Lynn was using. Worst case it should be able to provide maximum airflow that the engine can take, hopefully overcoming any loses related to the restrictions of the snorkel. I've planned to grab a Power Commander V, looks like it's the most versatile, and should provide the best programmability regardless of whether the fan works or not. Once the fan and ESC shows up, I'm going to start doing some testing, and will post my results on a test rig. Cheers.

Looking into this a bit further, if you look at the following image of the fan I'm using,



and one of a true centrifugal electric super charger, the the designs are very similar, this one is just the inlet of the charger, without housing exhaust, I'm still interested to see if it's going to work or not, for the 50 bucks in parts its worth a try, otherwise i guess ill just have to buy 3 or 5 more, and make a UAV lol.

 

[spifyd]

When your get it you can just mount it in a pipe. cap on the other end see if it makes any pressure. As far as a fuel controller goes the dobeck is an Autotune. dobeck will adjust for no pressure to 20 pounds of pressure automatically. I think you'll find the power command has to be tuned and if the pressure is not the same every time. your tuning won't be right.
The dobeck is auto tune just set the fuel ratio you want to run and it will stay there no matter what.
Power Commander can be Auto Tune it's $600 for that 1. + you still going to have to spend another hundred fifty for an afr gauge. You can't tune without.

The did this on my phone I don't know how it's going to read

 

[Lynn]

I'm following this with great interest, and can see and agree with your points, but what I found using a home made manometer is that even a 300cfm ventilation fan will produce some pressure. How much exactly I'm not sure, but enough to to lower my acceleration times on a set distances. I think spifyd is right that a turbo (fan) is designed for compressing air but you still need volume also. So I really like the looks (or design) of the fans that superyeti is showing us because they look like a turbo type design, and I think we can agree that it doesn't make any difference weather it's power by exhaust or by a electric motor if the fan is designed to produce volume and pressure.
Now I would like someone to define and explain the terms used here and on other posts so everybody can be on the same page as to the function of each component.
Mapping
map sensor
controller
fuel controller
ignition timing map
PCV
ESC, etc and any more you can think of. I think this would be helpful to all in the HondaSxS community. I don't feel qualified to give good definitions, but I know we have smart people on here who can do it. So someone take on the challenge.

 

[Lynn]

Maybe those definitions should be on a separate forum post.