P1000 Wheel spacer math??

J

JTW

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Has anyone done the math on what you gain or don’t gain from adding spacers or not? I realize there are a ton of variables that can change COG.. just curious on a base line though. If you have stock machine with stock wheels and put it on an incline vs a machine with lift on the incline vs a machine with lift and spacers on the incline. What kind of degrees of stabilization and change do spacers and height actually gain and decrease the machine from stock.
 
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joeymt33

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There’s way too many variables to include. Do you have overhead speaker? Roof? Lift kit? What’s the weight of the occupants? Even the type of skid plate which is weight down low and the weight of the tires all play a role in center of gravity.

The only thing you need to know is that wider is more stable. I’m ~2” per corner wider than stock and it seems to be ok for the vehicle so far.
 
J

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There’s way too many variables to include. Do you have overhead speaker? Roof? Lift kit? What’s the weight of the occupants? Even the type of skid plate which is weight down low and the weight of the tires all play a role in center of gravity.

The only thing you need to know is that wider is more stable. I’m ~2” per corner wider than stock and it seems to be ok for the vehicle so far.
Yeah.. I get all that. Just curious of actual numbers and the quantitive change it all makes on an empty stock bike. Looking at spacers I saw the 1, 1.5 & 2 inch spacers.. and it just made me wonder what the degree of change would be for a little height vs what a 1-2” spacer makes
 
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ohanacreek

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Yeah.. I get all that. Just curious of actual numbers and the quantitive change it all makes on an empty stock bike. Looking at spacers I saw the 1, 1.5 & 2 inch spacers.. and it just made me wonder what the degree of change would be for a little height vs what a 1-2” spacer makes

Also have to account for the narrower stance with the offset a-arms.
 
Plumber32

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Yeah.. I get all that. Just curious of actual numbers and the quantitive change it all makes on an empty stock bike. Looking at spacers I saw the 1, 1.5 & 2 inch spacers.. and it just made me wonder what the degree of change would be for a little height vs what a 1-2” spacer makes
Dude you could be 80" wide and your still going to dump it! If i were you id take some balet classes and get some balance.You being Fred Flintstone is old.
 
sharp

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Yeah.. I get all that. Just curious of actual numbers and the quantitive change it all makes on an empty stock bike. Looking at spacers I saw the 1, 1.5 & 2 inch spacers.. and it just made me wonder what the degree of change would be for a little height vs what a 1-2” spacer makes
I'll ask my wife to do the math when she gets off work if she's not too tired. She's likes that kind of stuff. Lol
 
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ohanacreek

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Has anyone done the math on what you gain or don’t gain from adding spacers or not? I realize there are a ton of variables that can change COG.. just curious on a base line though. If you have stock machine with stock wheels and put it on an incline vs a machine with lift on the incline vs a machine with lift and spacers on the incline. What kind of degrees of stabilization and change do spacers and height actually gain and decrease the machine from stock.

If you lift it or use the offset a-arms you’re effectively narrowing the machine at the same time. So the center of mass (COM) is going to be elevated.

So a 2” lift wouldn’t raise the COM a maximum of 2”, it would raise it a minimum of 2”. In reality it would be more because you’re narrowing the machine by moving the hubs further away from being extended straight out from the centerline of the diff which would make for the widest possible stance, by lifting it AND offset the centerline of the hubs forward. It will be even more exaggerated.

My 700-4 was more top heavy than Dolly Parton, 4” lift, 28” tires, I had 2 heavy lightbars up high, HEAVY fiberglass speaker enclosure at roof level, hard mid panel, HEAVY swing away tire carrier with a Roto-Pak toolkit/gas can and and spare mounted, heater was mounted right at the level of the dash. It was tipsy.

On my 1000 I mounted everything as low as I could get it and it still be useful. I used a soft mid panel to reduce high mass, I put my second battery down low under drivers seat, instead of under the hood, I mounted the single lightbar, out front at bumper level, tool kit is put under the drivers seat, no spare unless it’s a long trip.

There’s an incredibly difference in tipsiness just between having the glass windshield on and off and it’s only 35-40lbs. Its most noticeable when the rig is moving back and forth, it doesn’t settle on the suspension as quickly and is nowhere near as stable, because that mass is higher and further away from the points of the machine that are contacting the ground.

Think of these two things:
1.The way it’s very difficult to turn a bolt with a short wrench but can be made to break loose very easily with a longer wrench.

B.Holding a sledge hammer by the end of the wooden handle and moving it around vs holding it by the heavy steel head and swinging the light wooden handle. It’s easier to suddenly change the direction of the wooden handle when you’re holding it by the head but not so much the direction of the head when you’re holding it by the handle.



When I mount my wetsounds bar I’ll measure the tip over point to show how such little weight will make a difference when it’s so far from the contact with the ground.
 
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Plumber32

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If you lift it or use the offset a-arms you’re effectively narrowing the machine at the same time. So the center of mass (COM) is going to be elevated.

So a 2” lift wouldn’t raise the COM a maximum of 2”, it would raise it a minimum of 2”. In reality it would be more because you’re narrowing the machine by moving the hubs further away from being extended straight out from the centerline of the diff which would make for the widest possible stance, by lifting it AND offset the centerline of the hubs forward. It will be even more exaggerated.

My 700-4 was more top heavy than Dolly Parton, 4” lift, 28” tires, I had 2 heavy lightbars up high, HEAVY fiberglass speaker enclosure at roof level, hard mid panel, HEAVY swing away tire carrier with a Roto-Pak toolkit/gas can and and spare mounted, heater was mounted right at the level of the dash. It was tipsy.

On my 1000 I mounted everything as low as I could get it and it still be useful. I used a soft mid panel to reduce high mass, I put my second battery down low under drivers seat, instead of under the hood, I mounted the single lightbar, out front at bumper level, tool kit is put under the drivers seat, no spare unless it’s a long trip.

There’s an incredibly difference in tipsiness just between having the glass windshield on and off and it’s only 35-40lbs. Its most noticeable when the rig is moving back and forth, it doesn’t settle on the suspension as quickly and is nowhere near as stable, because that mass is higher and further away from the points of the machine that are contacting the ground.

Think of these two things:
1.The way it’s very difficult to turn a bolt with a short wrench but can be made to break loose very easily with a longer wrench.

B.Holding a sledge hammer by the end of the wooden handle and moving it around vs holding it by the heavy steel head and swinging the light wooden handle. It’s easier to suddenly change the direction of the wooden handle when you’re holding it by the head but not so much the direction of the head when you’re holding it by the handle.



When I mount my wetsounds bar I’ll measure the tip over point to show how such little weight will make a difference when it’s so far from the contact with the ground.
You forget to mention how the earth is flat in you above explanation
 
ohanacreek

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You forget to mention how the earth is flat in you above explanation


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JACKAL

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Yeah.. I get all that. Just curious of actual numbers and the quantitive change it all makes on an empty stock bike. Looking at spacers I saw the 1, 1.5 & 2 inch spacers.. and it just made me wonder what the degree of change would be for a little height vs what a 1-2” spacer makes

Stock width 62.9" if you added 2" spacers to stretch it to 66.9" all things being equal should improve stability by approximately 6% (62.9÷66.9=94.02 . 100-94=6)

However the increase in bump steer is compounded considerably not to mention the added width causing issues in tight trails and increased opportunity to tweak a tie rod.

Best bet is to learn to drive down trails without testing the roll cage, by picking better lines.
 
ToddACimer

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Stock width 62.9" if you added 2" spacers to stretch it to 66.9" all things being equal should improve stability by approximately 6% (62.9÷66.9=94.02 . 100-94=6)

However the increase in bump steer increase is compounded considerably not to mention the added width causing issues in tight trails and increased opportunity to tweak a tie rod.

Best bet is to learn to drive down trails without testing the roll cage, by picking better lines.


I agree with the last statement the most, learn to drive and get comfortable with the machine.

The calculated 6% is really optimistic. Lateral stability is a combination of tire tractive effort, suspension roll stability and vehicle CG. The wheel spacers can't change your tires, it doesn't change your vehicle CG but it will change the suspension response to lateral and longitudinal CG. Basically a wider track width reduces spring rate applied in any off camber situation since the tire load has a greater moment applied to the spring. The wider track width with give the perception of greater stability in low angle off camber situations but the machine will have a quicker response to lifting a tire as it rolls further (even if it has a slightly higher roll over angle). The Pioneer tends to be rear end heavy so even matching the track width in the rear to match the front would increase stability but it will likely hurt turning radius.

My biggest complaint with all the lift arms is the reduction in track width, it's a bummer nobody has an offset arm kit with longer shafts to maintain track width. Longer arms without wheel spacers would allow the suspension to be setup for improved roll stability without the additional moment applied by the wheel spacers.
 
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JACKAL

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I agree with the last statement the most, learn to drive and get comfortable with the machine.

The calculated 6% is really optimistic. Lateral stability is a combination of tire tractive effort, suspension roll stability and vehicle CG. The wheel spacers can't change your tires, it doesn't change your vehicle CG but it will change the suspension response to lateral and longitudinal CG. Basically a wider track width reduces spring rate applied in any off camber situation since the tire load has a greater moment applied to the spring. The wider track width with give the perception of greater stability in low angle off camber situations but the machine will have a quicker response to lifting a tire as it rolls further (even if it has a slightly higher roll over angle). The Pioneer tends to be rear end heavy so even matching the track width in the rear to match the front would increase stability but it will likely hurt turning radius.

My biggest complaint with all the lift arms is the reduction in track width, it's a bummer nobody has an offset arm kit with longer shafts to maintain track width. Longer arms without wheel spacers would allow the suspension to be setup for improved roll stability without the additional moment applied by the wheel spacers.


LOL and I want a 50" wide P1K instead of the 64"+ crowd.
 
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ToddACimer

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LOL and I want a 50" wide P1K instead of the 64"+ crowd.

I just don't like how most of the lifted machines have really offset wheels or spacers because the suspension is so drooped just to make the lift height.
 
J

JTW

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I’m still scratching my head on this.. yeah yeah yeah.. I get wider is more stable, COG, wider is bad because... yada yada yada... but I still don’t have any idea of what it all really means. So you have a stock machine, and you add a lift to it. Does that machine that was stable at 45’ now tip at 35’? If you add a 1” does that get you back 3,4,5’?? How about 2”? Is that twice the stability gain or does it start to plain off? I realize it’s all subjective in the real world, just curious what all those things actually translate to in a controlled situation.

I understand that the best answer is knowing your machine and picking the right lines.. but reality is most of us don’t get to spend enough time in the seat or we tweak and add s*** so often that it’s always changing. Rather than relying on the old ass meter, I’m curious how Much it all correlates.
 
RB3offroad

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I personally like the 1" or 1 1/2" spacers just for added stability. It makes a huge difference in the sand and easy rock climbing.
 
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