Where my electricians at?

[DRZRon1]

Same here @ the previous house. This was in the new pole barn I built in 2013. Needless to say, the electrical inspector was pleased with my work.

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You mentioned eventually pulling a 4-wire setup out there to run future 240v tools. If you trench and install conduit, always add an extra (unused) one for future use. Pull a string through it and put something at each end so you can't pull the string through. Then when you do pull something through, pull another piece of string WITH it (and add something to each end of the new string). That way, you never have to snake a damn thing through. This was from the house to the pole barn. One was for electrical, one was for CSST NG, and then the extra one.

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outstanding quality installation - kudos......

 

[Admin]

 

[Tom_C]

Same here @ the previous house. This was in the new pole barn I built in 2013. Needless to say, the electrical inspector was pleased with my work.

View attachment 441266

You mentioned eventually pulling a 4-wire setup out there to run future 240v tools. If you trench and install conduit, always add an extra (unused) one for future use. Pull a string through it and put something at each end so you can't pull the string through. Then when you do pull something through, pull another piece of string WITH it (and add something to each end of the new string). That way, you never have to snake a damn thing through. This was from the house to the pole barn. One was for electrical, one was for CSST NG, and then the extra one.

View attachment 441267

That's nice. My suggestion, and not a criticism but a suggestion. I take a 2" piece of scrap Romex insulation, and write a note using a sharpy on it to ID the circuit... slip that over each hot wire so once you pull the cover off you still know what each circuit is.

 

[Vikes79]

So, the feed to the barn is 3 wires. 2 hots and a ground. (A) hot going to one phase, (B) to another, and the ground to the ground bar. 120v neutrals and grounds return to the same bar.

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You don’t say the age of the barn in your comments , but this looks like an old school 3 wire 220 setup. In my area it would be commonly seen, and correct for the date installed, but not considered proper for new installations these days. Having a main breaker on the sub and another breaker in the main panel is only bringing redundant breakers, and not required in my area on small subs like this one.

In my view this isn’t likely where your problem is at. I also wouldn’t replace the wiring either. But…I’m not familiar with code in your area either.

My money is on that you have a box or something in this circuit past the panel (outlet, switch, etc ) that has burned, corroded, wet or otherwise poor connections causing the issue you are seeing and bringing the stay voltage to the ground bar ( via the small gauge neutrals ) in this box and then back to the house panel via the ground wire.

I’d start by unhooking 1 by 1 each breaker circuit in this box (hot, neutral and ground) and checking back at your house. Leave them unhooked until you find the change. Maybe you already did this and I miss read the posts in this thread.

If you unhook all the circuits in this sub panel and the issue remains, then it’s on the supply to the sub panel or the sub panel itself. The final last check would be to unhook the 2 hots and the ground for the final last check…

A ground rod is needed but it’s not solving the problem…or the source in my view.

 

[The Green Goat]

You don’t say the age of the barn in your comments , but this looks like an old school 3 wire 220 setup. In my area it would be commonly seen, and correct for the date installed, but not considered proper for new installations these days. Having a main breaker on the sub and another breaker in the main panel is only bringing redundant breakers, and not required in my area on small subs like this one.

In my view this isn’t likely where your problem is at. I also wouldn’t replace the wiring either. But…I’m not familiar with code in your area either.

My money is on that you have a box or something in this circuit past the panel (outlet, switch, etc ) that has burned, corroded, wet or otherwise poor connections causing the issue you are seeing and bringing the stay voltage to the ground bar ( via the small gauge neutrals ) in this box and then back to the house panel via the ground wire.

I’d start by unhooking 1 by 1 each breaker circuit in this box (hot, neutral and ground) and checking back at your house. Leave them unhooked until you find the change. Maybe you already did this and I miss read the posts in this thread.

If you unhook all the circuits in this sub panel and the issue remains, then it’s on the supply to the sub panel or the sub panel itself. The final last check would be to unhook the 2 hots and the ground for the final last check…

A ground rod is needed but it’s not solving the problem…or the source in my view.

I believe the barn was built around 2003-2004.

And yea, I also considered pulling off each circuit from the sub panel to make sure it wasn't some defective device on the individual circuit. The only thing that's on them is either lights or outlets.

 

[Scoop]

In my area it would be commonly seen ... and not required in my area on small subs like this one.

I'm no electrician, but don't most state laws and/or local codes simply refer to/mandate that compliance to the NEC (National Electrical Code) is "code"?

In my vague recollection of my conversations with electricians and the county inspector back when I wired the pole barn in 2013, the sub panel had to have a disconnect in or near by because the source where it was getting power from was not quickly or easily accessible. I fed my sub panel in the pole barn from the main panel in the house. It would likely take at least a minute and several hundred steps to get from the pole barn to the basement in the house to reach the sub panel disconnect if there was not one @ the sub panel in the pole barn.

 

[Vikes79]

I'm no electrician, but don't most state laws and/or local codes simply refer to/mandate that compliance to the NEC (National Electrical Code) is "code"?

In my vague recollection of my conversations with electricians and the county inspector back when I wired the pole barn in 2013, the sub panel had to have a disconnect in or near by because the source where it was getting power from was not quickly or easily accessible. I fed my sub panel in the pole barn from the main panel in the house. It would likely take at least a minute and several hundred steps to get from the pole barn to the basement in the house to reach the sub panel disconnect if there was not one @ the sub panel in the pole barn.

My experience is from family members whom are electricians and my own engineering experience. I am in no way an expert on the local ordinances. I do know they can vary quite a bit.

There is the NEC and then there’s the local ordinances, and then what the inspector is actually doing. It’s maddening for me as equipment installation in one area or state might be accepted, but if I reinstall it in another state it’s not always allowed without some changes…

The reason I asked the date is I do know that 2 hots and a ground wire was considered standard code probably 15 or more years ago. I have seen countless electric dryers, water heaters, and panels wired this way.

As far as the small sub with a main… the only thing the main breaker is disconnecting is the lugs to the 4 small breakers…you still have live power in the box…the difference being the amount of exposed lugs square inches I suppose. It’s been a while but I believe most 6 slot and larger sub panels do have a small main breaker.

 

[Vikes79]

I believe the barn was built around 2003-2004.

And yea, I also considered pulling off each circuit from the sub panel to make sure it wasn't some defective device on the individual circuit. The only thing that's on them is either lights or outlets.

Electricity is a funny thing….it may not seem like much, but a poorly wired outlet, some corrosion, water in an exterior box, etc can create all kinds of problems on your system.

I hope your exterior outlet boxes have a GFI on the first outlet box…

 

[Scoop]

My experience is from family members whom are electricians and my own engineering experience. I am in no way an expert on the local ordinances. I do know they can vary quite a bit.

Understood.

The reason I asked the date is I do know that 2 hots and a ground wire was considered standard code probably 15 or more years ago. I have seen countless electric dryers, water heaters, and panels wired this way.

I don't disagree with that at all.

Side note: My BIL and SIL bought a house a couple of years ago, and it still had the old knob and tube wiring system! House was built in the early 1900's.

As far as the small sub with a main… the only thing the main breaker is disconnecting is the lugs to the 4 small breakers…you still have live power in the box…the difference being the amount of exposed lugs square inches I suppose. It’s been a while but I believe most 6 slot and larger sub panels do have a small main breaker.

Yea, I think I recall something like a "6 switch rule" or something like that, plus a few other situations that mandate a main breaker in or near a sub panel (my panel had 7 breakers, and I think I added another one before the final inspection). But I think they are largely NOT required by NEC, per se, but are often recommended for convenience.

 

[Barracuda]

Yea, I don't know why they've only got a 3wire setup.

I'm still curious where this mystery voltage is coming from though. If I'm understanding it correctly, it would have to be coming from one of those 4 romex cables or perhaps some damaged insulation in the sub panel feed wires, right?

I would throw all the barn breakers and energize each one at a time to see if you can isolate where the voltage is coming from (check voltage at the hose one at a time with the single breaker energized). If you isolate a particular breaker then you would chase that circuit...

 

[The Green Goat]

I would throw all the barn breakers and energize each one at a time to see if you can isolate where the voltage is coming from (check voltage at the hose one at a time with the single breaker energized). If you isolate a particular breaker then you would chase that circuit...

Didn't have much time to mess with it today, but I've narrowed it down to this circuit. If this one is on, it feeds the ground energy. I didn't trace the romex, but I believe this one is all the outlets around the barn. I'll dig into it further in the next few days. Appreciate the help, fellas.

 

[Tom_C]

I'm no electrician, but don't most state laws and/or local codes simply refer to/mandate that compliance to the NEC (National Electrical Code) is "code"?

In my vague recollection of my conversations with electricians and the county inspector back when I wired the pole barn in 2013, the sub panel had to have a disconnect in or near by because the source where it was getting power from was not quickly or easily accessible. I fed my sub panel in the pole barn from the main panel in the house. It would likely take at least a minute and several hundred steps to get from the pole barn to the basement in the house to reach the sub panel disconnect if there was not one @ the sub panel in the pole barn.

I'm a trained electrician (vocational school) but never worked as electrician. I don't know the code, but know how to wire stuff. If it were me, I'd want a disconnect it a box that is 150 feet away from the main panel. That's just me.

 

[Tom_C]

Didn't have much time to mess with it today, but I've narrowed it down to this circuit. If this one is on, it feeds the ground energy. I didn't trace the romex, but I believe this one is all the outlets around the barn. I'll dig into it further in the next few days. Appreciate the help, fellas.

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OMG. I just noticed this. That circuit is being used as the main breaker!

ADDED: Nope, I see now, the main black wire is running behind. Whew!

I think you've gotten good advise, and if you've identified that circuit as possible trouble, then I'd start by rewiring the box as you said (turn it into a single phase) with a proper neutral, tighten all the connections, and check the devices on that potentially bad circuit. Start there, IMO.

 

[Vikes79]

Didn't have much time to mess with it today, but I've narrowed it down to this circuit. If this one is on, it feeds the ground energy. I didn't trace the romex, but I believe this one is all the outlets around the barn. I'll dig into it further in the next few days. Appreciate the help, fellas.

View attachment 441384

Glad you’re narrowing down the circuit.

Now you know your supply is in good shape and likely the fix won’t be so expensive.

Hopefully you have good sight on the wiring to see if you got a rouge nail or something on the wiring.

On this type of seek and destroy mission I like to work in halves of the circuit. Instead of going in order on the boxes, I disconnect the most middle box and then see which half it’s on and work in that direction. Sometimes you gain some time in this way.

 

[Scoop]

I wonder if it might be the breaker itself. If you have a spare, swap it out. Or maybe swap it with one of the others and see if it follows the breaker. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Vikes79]

Seems appropriate at the moment

 

[john790]

Looks good to me

 

[The Green Goat]

I don't see any teflon tape on those joints. I'd definitely put some teflon on there... for safety.

 

[DRZRon1]

Seems appropriate at the moment

View attachment 441389

should be Nema 4X - stainless or a poly box Nema enclosure

 

[906UP]

Seems appropriate at the moment

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Pretty sure those are the wrong size wire nuts, should be the yellow ones

 

[Vikes79]

Pretty sure those are the wrong size wire nuts, should be the yellow ones

I guess that’s better than blue nuts….🤷‍♂️