P1000 '21 P-1000 SE thoughts pluses and minuses

[Smitty335]

Yes. The SE is the LE with a handful of OEM options installed @ the factory and the Urban Camo color.

I had a P1K5 SE I could have purchased a couple weeks before I found my Deluxe Camo.

IMHO, the LE is overpriced for what you get, and it takes away your ability to choose what brands/models of options you want to install. I know you've seen my build thread on all that I've added to my Deluxe in my first month of ownership -- I've spent less than what I would have paid for the LE, but have added 3x as many accessories.

2021 SE features & benefits: Clicky-clicky

"Available for both the three- and five-seat versions, and based on the Limited Edition trim level (LE), the SE option adds real value, improved performance, visual flair and the capability to go and explore farther, thanks to the accessory hard roof, two-piece poly windscreen, front fender flares, Warn 4,500-pound winch, accessory switch plate, rear-view mirror and a 14-inch LED light bar."

MSRP is $4,900 more for the SE compared to the Deluxe Phantom Camo. You can do a lot more than the above for $5K.

And the Deluxe is a better gnarly trail machine, been there, seen that!

 

[bridgermgmt]

I do believe if the Talon would have came out with an option for I4WD or standard, we wouldn't have lost a bunch of core members?

Agree 100%

And the Deluxe is a better gnarly trail machine, been there, seen that!

Shots fired lol.

 

[Scoop]

You are correct. And this is typical in most if not all vehicles on the road. For a reason.

Remember when you could by an Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme, a Buick Regal, a Chevrolet Monte Carlo or a Pontiac Grand Prix? There's a reason half the GM divisions and half the GM platforms went bye-bye, and it largely had to do with cost and complexity.

However, the extra trim levels are not actually "extra". They are simply the same from a production standpoint as a se or le. So you have the same exact number as currently. However, it becomes the dealers responsibility to order those.

In order to build six different trim levels (versus four) at the assembly plant, EVERYTHING has to be more complex, not just the assembly line: Engineering, plant layout for production and component storage, logistics, purchasing, supplier and plant quality, accounting and finance, sales, etc.. You can't say that producing six different trim levels costs the same as four - it's doesn't.

Rather than having the dealer put the $$$ in to all the parts, you have the dealer finish it as they currently do.

The same dealers who can barely remember to tighten the bolts on the ROPS before they deliver them? LOL.

This decreases the cost associated with the build of the model on the more difficult parts.

Disagree. Honda still has to put additional cost and effort into all the various functional areas (and more) that I mentioned above.

Ensures proper installation and performance. The example would be the heater. It seems hit and miss on peoples review of that part and much of that seems to come from the dealer install. So imagine a full SE model with a heater installed, so its a SE-Comfort. When it arrives at the dealer, its assembled per the usual process, with the additional cab and parts added at that time. None of which require total disassembly or massive additional costs as those are done at time of build by manufacturer. You increase the manufacturing time slightly, but not nearly as much as you do when your doing it at the dealer level. You also ensure if anything is wrong, you have immediate access to parts vs having to order a new heater and piss of the customer. SO there are up sides. And from a manufacturing stand point, you are still building 4 models.

Building a SE without a heater and a SE-Comfort with a heater (assuming that's not the ONLY difference between the two) are, most certainly, two different trim levels, not one. Same model, sure. Same trim level, no. And building different trim levels of the same model doesn't eliminate complexity - it increases it. If you're building a base, a Deluxe, a SE, an SE-Comfort, an LE and an LE-Comfort at the manufacturing facility and they are DIFFERENT when delivered to the dealers, you're building SIX different trim levels, not four. Again, more complexity.

So to sum it up. It SOUNDS more complex, but from a financial stand point, and a long term costs to complexity stand point, its actually far more inexpensive and faster to produce.

We'll have to agree to disagree. There's a reason Ford asked us two years ago to develop the fewest number of HVAC units (design) that could accommodate the most number of different platforms: Reduce complexity to reduce costs. We produce the HVAC unit for 80% of all North American market Ford and Lincoln cars, SUVs and light trucks (F150-F450). With the reduced complexity, we spend less time producing more units. It's far easier and cheaper to design, develop, product and chase 100,000 pieces of component A instead of 25K each of component A, B, C and D because the latter is needed to support more complexity.

Honda may be able to install a heater in 2-3 hours vs the dealer at 5-8 hours. But they ensure its done exact to spec and there is no removal of the original equipment meaning less additional cost to the customer and the manufacturer. Meaning they could compete financially much better while still maintaining a profit margin that makes sense.

It's more than just having a couple extra bodies on the assembly line to install a heater. But you already know that.

 

[Scoop]

Scoop, your also a very capable owner. You know what your doing and you have the ability to do it.

Thanks. I've spent a lifetime never trying to avoid getting my hands dirty or learning how to do just about anything.

80/20 rule. 80% of the buyers are not of your ability at time of purchase. And with your background, you knew what you wanted or at least where to learn about it and make a choice.

I do agree that some people can't or don't want to "do the work" to customize, so there will always be plenty of folks willing to pay more to get a more accessorized trim level. But that doesn't change the fact that adding complexity (i.e., producing six trim levels instead of just four) adds cost to ALL trim levels, not just the higher trim levels.

Also, you build is pretty rad.

Why am I not feeling the same way right about now? LOL.

 

[bridgermgmt]

Remember when you could by an Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme, a Buick Regal, a Chevrolet Monte Carlo or a Pontiac Grand Prix? There's a reason half the GM divisions and half the GM platforms went bye-bye, and it largely had to do with cost and complexity.


In order to build six different trim levels (versus four) at the assembly plant, EVERYTHING has to be more complex, not just the assembly line: Engineering, plant layout for production and component storage, logistics, purchasing, supplier and plant quality, accounting and finance, sales, etc.. You can't say that producing six different trim levels costs the same as four - it's doesn't.


The same dealers who can barely remember to tighten the bolts on the ROPS before they deliver them? LOL.


Disagree. Honda still has to put additional cost and effort into all the various functional areas (and more) that I mentioned above.


Building a SE without a heater and a SE-Comfort with a heater (assuming that's not the ONLY difference between the two) are, most certainly, two different trim levels, not one. Same model, sure. Same trim level, no. And building different trim levels of the same model doesn't eliminate complexity - it increases it. If you're building a base, a Deluxe, a SE, an SE-Comfort, an LE and an LE-Comfort at the manufacturing facility and they are DIFFERENT when delivered to the dealers, you're building SIX different trim levels, not four. Again, more complexity.


We'll have to agree to disagree. There's a reason Ford asked us two years ago to develop the fewest number of HVAC units (design) that could accommodate the most number of different platforms: Reduce complexity to reduce costs. We produce the HVAC unit for 80% of all North American market Ford and Lincoln cars, SUVs and light trucks (F150-F450). With the reduced complexity, we spend less time producing more units. It's far easier and cheaper to design, develop, product and chase 100,000 pieces of component A instead of 25K each of component A, B, C and D because the latter is needed to support more complexity.


It's more than just having a couple extra bodies on the assembly line to install a heater. But you already know that.

1. Was that on the same production line at the same factory?
2. Id does have to be more complex. But remember, the LE and SE are not different. Just different accessories. Correct? So if that is the case, the only addition would be the heater on the SE VS SE-C. That would be done on the line pre shipment. The rest would be done as it currently is, at the dealer.
3. You make my point here. Cost of RE-Work is exponentially higher than first run. So again, install the heater by and at honda. The rest is assembled as usual at the dealer. Of course that doesn't fix the loose bolt issue haha. But I don't want people who struggle with the ROPS to do the heater.... just saying.
4. You are correct, but it must be defined. If an SE has a cost factor of 1.5 and an SE-C would be a factor of 1.75 it is higher. But when that same SE converts at a dealer from an SE to an SE-C the cost factor may be 2.5. Example If the customer was told its 29K for an SE-C or 25K for an SE, however, if you want to eventually make it an SE-C your paying 32K and it may not be done correct...... Honda could effectively drop the factor to 2.0, keep more profit, ensure proper install, and the customer would be able to pay 29 vs 32, making it a cheaper option in the long run for both.
5. Gladly. But I have enjoyed the back and fourth. Always fun to get another perspective. I worked for ford but not in a manufacturing perspective. I was a buyer. And what ford did is the same honda has done here. The heater is 1 unit for ALL trim models. IT fits in ALL trim models. It would not make sense to have 4 different heaters for a p1k - 1k5. I think that proves my point again. : )

6. Skilled labor is the most cost draining thing a business has going for it. So the first place you always go after is labor. To your point, paying an engineer 100K to make this a 1 hour job, vs paying an engineer 10K to make this a 4 hour job. There is a reason engineers make so much money. They are doing the best they can to reduce cost without sacrificing quality.

Thanks. I've spent a lifetime never trying to avoid getting my hands dirty or learning how to do just about anything.


I do agree that some people can't or don't want to "do the work" to customize, so there will always be plenty of folks willing to pay more to get a more accessorized trim level. But that doesn't change the fact that adding complexity (i.e., producing six trim levels instead of just four) adds cost to ALL trim levels, not just the higher trim levels.


Why am I not feeling the same way right about now? LOL.

View attachment 306901

1. Your welcome.
2. Agree because those people make up the vast majority. So you always make that person your priority. They pay the bills and keep the doors open.
3. Those pics make me feel for you...... But at least your in a nice garage : ) Also your rig has a very mad max look to it at the moment. Think it might be time to weld on some spikes to your rims and add some chrome. You could be scoop the destroyer!!! mu hahaha

 

[Scoop]

1. Was that on the same production line at the same factory?

I stated several times that additional complexity increases costs in far more functional areas than just on the assembly line, so that's only one of many factors.

2. Id does have to be more complex. But remember, the LE and SE are not different. Just different accessories. Correct? So if that is the case, the only addition would be the heater on the SE VS SE-C. That would be done on the line pre shipment. The rest would be done as it currently is, at the dealer.
3. You make my point here. Cost of RE-Work is exponentially higher than first run. So again, install the heater by and at honda. The rest is assembled as usual at the dealer. Of course that doesn't fix the loose bolt issue haha. But I don't want people who struggle with the ROPS to do the heater.... just saying.
4. You are correct, but it must be defined. If an SE has a cost factor of 1.5 and an SE-C would be a factor of 1.75 it is higher. But when that same SE converts at a dealer from an SE to an SE-C the cost factor may be 2.5. Example If the customer was told its 29K for an SE-C or 25K for an SE, however, if you want to eventually make it an SE-C your paying 32K and it may not be done correct...... Honda could effectively drop the factor to 2.0, keep more profit, ensure proper install, and the customer would be able to pay 29 vs 32, making it a cheaper option in the long run for both.
5. Gladly. But I have enjoyed the back and fourth. Always fun to get another perspective. I worked for ford but not in a manufacturing perspective. I was a buyer. And what ford did is the same honda has done here. The heater is 1 unit for ALL trim models. IT fits in ALL trim models. It would not make sense to have 4 different heaters for a p1k - 1k5. I think that proves my point again. : )

6. Skilled labor is the most cost draining thing a business has going for it. So the first place you always go after is labor. To your point, paying an engineer 100K to make this a 1 hour job, vs paying an engineer 10K to make this a 4 hour job. There is a reason engineers make so much money. They are doing the best they can to reduce cost without sacrificing quality.

1. Your welcome.
2. Agree because those people make up the vast majority. So you always make that person your priority. They pay the bills and keep the doors open.

All good points, even if we don't agree on all of them.

3. Those pics make me feel for you...... But at least your in a nice garage : ) Also your rig has a very mad max look to it at the moment. Think it might be time to weld on some spikes to your rims and add some chrome. You could be scoop the destroyer!!! mu hahaha

The replacement heater arrived about 1.5 hours ago. I hope to get it installed, everything tested and have it back together if not by this weekend then before this weekend is over. I need to put some miles on it so I'm confident it will get us out and back the weekend of 12/10.

 

[kentterry]

I didn't do a "Bumper Build" thread, most of the stuff I've added has been done before. I've taken a few and posted them in various threads! Here's a sampling:

Nilight bottom is even with roof edge, doesn't block view:

View attachment 302420

Removed the "You're all gonna die!" warning on the dash. Space will be used probable for a boss radio and a few more switches.
View attachment 302421

Back bumper is a High Lift jack:
View attachment 302422

The winch clutch is not easy to reach on the SE, my fix (pic taken before smoothing edges):
View attachment 302425

Phone (not in holder), map tablet, and InReach are all overhead - barely showing at far right is courtesy light:
View attachment 302426
Oh, and that's a digital inclinometer above the instrument panel.

Where did you find the brackets for the jack/bumper? Or did you make them? Thanks

 

[bumperm]

Where did you find the brackets for the jack/bumper? Or did you make them? Thanks

These:

Jack mounting brackets

Note that I was not sure about how thick the roll bar tubing is, and I wanted to hunker down on the mounting bolts without risk of denting the tubing - this may be of no concern, but I wanted to be sure. So I used a short length of steel tube with the same ID as the OD of the roll cage tubing, then used that inside the "U-clamp bolts".