ePowersteering.com kit for the Talon

[PaulF]

This is always one of the give-and-takes on newer machines with stock power steering. Once you remove the stock unit, the power steering light will always be there because the ECU is still searching for it. The only way to remedy that would be an ECU tune to remove the stock power steering file. We don't have access to the Honda tuning software. The fix...put a little square of black electrical tape over the light. Lol! 🤣

I know how to turn it off on the Talon without tuning it out of the ECU, dismantling the cluster or using a piece of black tape.

Instructions indicate your ECU has the ability to input a speed sensor but the harness doesn't look like isn't wired for it. This is really a must and easy to utilize on the Talon. Is the ECU programmed for a speed sensor and can it be added to the harness?

Also, what size are the input and output splines?

Like I offered, send me unit and I will do all the R&D for you (I have already done half of it!!!) Your cost of one of these units is dirt cheap R&D.

 

[TOGR]

Thank you Paul F, really. You do an awful lot for everyone!

 

[CumminsPusher]

We have a 400w universal kit that'll do the trick. Never got around to designing mounting brackets and specific steering shafts for the Talon because we didn't see the need initially. If this is something I should address, we can make it happen.

For the universal kit, you'd just have to fab up your own mount and cut and weld the steering shafts in the kit, and the universal will work and save a ton of cash.

https://www.superatv.com/universal-power-steering-kit-380w

Don’t use that in California, it causes cancer there.

 

[Vondy]

We need this!!! Hope @SuperATV and @PaulF can work out a deal to get this going especially if he can eliminate the steering light and use the speed sensor.

 

[CID]

We need this!!! Hope @SuperATV and @PaulF can work out a deal to get this going especially if he can eliminate the steering light and use the speed sensor.

I agree. This is a great chance for @SuperATV to get product development done by someone who’s already butt deep in trying to figure this out. All it will cost them is one PS unit. SATV - do it.

 

[TerryH]

I know how to turn it off on the Talon without tuning it out of the ECU, dismantling the cluster or using a piece of black tape.

Instructions indicate your ECU has the ability to input a speed sensor but the harness doesn't look like isn't wired for it. This is really a must and easy to utilize on the Talon. Is the ECU programmed for a speed sensor and can it be added to the harness?

Also, what size are the input and output splines?

Like I offered, send me unit and I will do all the R&D for you (I have already done half of it!!!) Your cost of one of these units is dirt cheap R&D.

We need this!!! Hope @SuperATV and @PaulF can work out a deal to get this going especially if he can eliminate the steering light and use the speed sensor.

I agree. This is a great chance for @SuperATV to get product development done by someone who’s already butt deep in trying to figure this out. All it will cost them is one PS unit. SATV - do it.

Step up @SuperATV ! I agree with everyone else. This is a golden opportunity for all of us!

 

[Neohio]

I think the best you will get from @SuperATV is the exclusive NTC discount.

 

[SuperATV]

I know how to turn it off on the Talon without tuning it out of the ECU, dismantling the cluster or using a piece of black tape.

Instructions indicate your ECU has the ability to input a speed sensor but the harness doesn't look like isn't wired for it. This is really a must and easy to utilize on the Talon. Is the ECU programmed for a speed sensor and can it be added to the harness?

Also, what size are the input and output splines?

Like I offered, send me unit and I will do all the R&D for you (I have already done half of it!!!) Your cost of one of these units is dirt cheap R&D.

The speed sensor on our unit isn't going to work with the Talon. It connected to some of the older ATV's back in the day like the old Brutes and old Sportsmans. The ECU for the 400w unit won't be programmed for it. I know guys in the Sprint Car and Sand Rail world that have modded the motors to adjust the power, but that's not something we'll likely do here because of cost increases.

There are no outer splines on the Universal shafts. They are Universal...and would require you to cut the length you need and weld the stock splined joint on either end. There are 20 splines on the inner shaft ends connected to the motor.

Again, this is a Universal kit that require some fab work...and is commonly used in sand rails, sprint cars, and watercraft.

I had no idea that so many people were struggling with the Talon power steering. I can get my team to put a plug and play kit together that bolts on...with no fab work. Just like our Pioneer kits. We would have to draw up a print and test it in house before releasing a complete "bolt-on" kit for the Talon.

If you guys have the fab skills to cut and weld your own steering shafts, these universal kits are a breeze. I'll try to get my guys to put a complete Talon bolt on kit together asap.

 

[Remington]

I'll try to get my guys to put a complete Talon bolt on kit together asap.

Thank you sir!

 

[PaulF]

The other possible option is the 2022 Pioneer unit. It is the motor and ECU combined into one unit and word has it that it is excellent and even works well when the diff is locked.

The entire unit is not too expensive (less than $600). I have the wiring diagram and Service Manual for the `22 Pioneer coming and will see if there is any way to retrofit it to a Talon.

If it uses similar wiring inputs as the Talon and older Pioneer, it may be doable and interface right in similar to stock but they changed the joints and shafts so there will be some fabbing involved. And initializing/calibrating it may be a problem also.

However, If it utilizes the can buss for any of the functions or warnings, then all bets are off if it will even work at all.

Got the '22 Pioneer wiring diagram today and I am 99% sure that the upgraded '22 Pioneer steering unit is a no-go on the pre '22 Talon and probably not even the '22 Talon either. The '22 Pioneer uses none of the Talon's sensor inputs and uses strictly Can Bus for all input/outputs. The Pioneer ECU only has 5 wires total (B+, B-, Ignition, Can L and Can H). Although the older Talon's use Can Bus, it is limited and does not communicate all the data to drive newer components. It won't even run the new cluster.

I could easily wire it up and tap into the Can Bus but I am pretty sure it will not work and for that reason, I will not try to retrofit a 2022 Pioneer steering unit to a Talon on my dime. If someone wants to bite the bullet and send me one to try, I will be happy to and if it works, I will pay for it.

I will be acquiring an aftermarket 380 or 400 Watt unit shortly and retrofit it to see if that is going to solve the major issues. If those Chinese units are truly around 400 watts then that is double what the Talon has and will certainly suffice. I highly doubt they are that powerful but we will all find out shortly.

In the meantime, a couple members, including @TerryH and I have had good success with an upgraded ECU to Motor harness I have built. It solves the momentary assist loss that can cause accidents and improves all other aspects of the steering. More info on that here...

Honda talon stiff power steering

At the dunes... Before relocating the ECU, I would rate it a 4 overall. Barely adequate with the occasional complete loss of assist to the point it was dangerous at times. After relocating the ECU, I would rate it a 9. Not perfect but damn close (and a LOT safer)! Hi Paul, Just curious if...

hondasxs.com

 

[TerryH]

I got to test a new power steering harness from @PaulF. Since changing over to Paul's harness I have not experienced the momentary loss of all power steering. Steering has an overall lighter feel but is still somewhat heavy in some situations. The harness is well worth the cost and the little time it takes to install. The harness is an 8 gauge harness that replaces the 12 gauge factory harness. It goes form the ECU under the driver's seat thru the tunnel up to the EPS motor. A very simple plug and play install. The harness is enough of an improvement that at this time I don't plan to make any more changes other than getting the RB3 billet rack installed.

 

[Jmaxx1502]

I’m in what’s it cost?

 

[PaulF]

I’m in what’s it cost?

Details here...

Honda talon stiff power steering

At the dunes... Before relocating the ECU, I would rate it a 4 overall. Barely adequate with the occasional complete loss of assist to the point it was dangerous at times. After relocating the ECU, I would rate it a 9. Not perfect but damn close (and a LOT safer)! Hi Paul, Just curious if...

hondasxs.com

 

[SuperATV]

Got the '22 Pioneer wiring diagram today and I am 99% sure that the upgraded '22 Pioneer steering unit is a no-go on the pre '22 Talon and probably not even the '22 Talon either. The '22 Pioneer uses none of the Talon's sensor inputs and uses strictly Can Bus for all input/outputs. The Pioneer ECU only has 5 wires total (B+, B-, Ignition, Can L and Can H). Although the older Talon's use Can Bus, it is limited and does not communicate all the data to drive newer components. It won't even run the new cluster.

I could easily wire it up and tap into the Can Bus but I am pretty sure it will not work and for that reason, I will not try to retrofit a 2022 Pioneer steering unit to a Talon on my dime. If someone wants to bite the bullet and send me one to try, I will be happy to and if it works, I will pay for it.

I will be acquiring an aftermarket 380 or 400 Watt unit shortly and retrofit it to see if that is going to solve the major issues. If those Chinese units are truly around 400 watts then that is double what the Talon has and will certainly suffice. I highly doubt they are that powerful but we will all find out shortly.

In the meantime, a couple members, including @TerryH and I have had good success with an upgraded ECU to Motor harness I have built. It solves the momentary assist loss that can cause accidents and improves all other aspects of the steering. More info on that here...

Honda talon stiff power steering

At the dunes... Before relocating the ECU, I would rate it a 4 overall. Barely adequate with the occasional complete loss of assist to the point it was dangerous at times. After relocating the ECU, I would rate it a 9. Not perfect but damn close (and a LOT safer)! Hi Paul, Just curious if...

hondasxs.com

If you go the aftermarket route, shoot me a PM if you want to fab up our universal 400w kit. I'll do what I can do get you a smoking deal on it.

 

[PaulF]

If you go the aftermarket route, shoot me a PM if you want to fab up our universal 400w kit. I'll do what I can do get you a smoking deal on it.

I really need a VSS connection for proper operation. I have been talking (as best I can via email to a sales rep that speaks very little English, UGH!!!) to the manufacturer of the ECU you use in your kit and according to them, it uses a standard pulse VSS signal and the Talon has 3 of those type of VS Sensors available that will work and provide a varied signal/speed ratio depending on which sensor is used.

Also according to them a VSS signal is optional. If not connected, the ECU just assumes the car is always still and the ECU applies full power. While this is fine for stopped/slow, it makes the steering overly touchy at higher speeds and we need to avoid this with a machine that can go 70+ MPH and has a 400W steering system.

You stated that the VSS input has been "programmed out" of your ECU and I just want to make sure that is really true or have you simply excluded the wire in the harness and let the ECU not utilize the VSS input and just apply full power all the time? PLEASE verify/clarify the VSS input for me.

If the VSS input is still active in your kit, then I will hit you up on that offer. If in fact the VSS input on your unit has been programmed out, it is not optimal for this vehicle and I will need to source another unit that has the VSS input.

Let me know ASAP as I am ready to pull the trigger.

 

[SuperATV]

I really need a VSS connection for proper operation. I have been talking (as best I can via email to a sales rep that speaks very little English, UGH!!!) to the manufacturer of the ECU you use in your kit and according to them, it uses a standard pulse VSS signal and the Talon has 3 of those type of VS Sensors available that will work and provide a varied signal/speed ratio depending on which sensor is used.

Also according to them a VSS signal is optional. If not connected, the ECU just assumes the car is always still and the ECU applies full power. While this is fine for stopped/slow, it makes the steering overly touchy at higher speeds and we need to avoid this with a machine that can go 70+ MPH and has a 400W steering system.

You stated that the VSS input has been "programmed out" of your ECU and I just want to make sure that is really true or have you simply excluded the wire in the harness and let the ECU not utilize the VSS input and just apply full power all the time? PLEASE verify/clarify the VSS input for me.

If the VSS input is still active in your kit, then I will hit you up on that offer. If in fact the VSS input on your unit has been programmed out, it is not optimal for this vehicle and I will need to source another unit that has the VSS input.

Let me know ASAP as I am ready to pull the trigger.

The speed sensor wire is still on the main wire harness. No idea how it is programmed to work with the ECU, but it is still there for those smaller and older ATV's that used it. I've honestly never used it in any of those installations, not even with the older ATVs....but everything is still present. I doubt we had anything changed with those ECU's too...so the program should be present. Getting to work with the Talon ECU....I have no idea there.

I totally understand about the speed sensitivity thought. High speeds with a sensitive power steering unit can be a bit sketchy.

 

[PaulF]

The speed sensor wire is still on the main wire harness. No idea how it is programmed to work with the ECU, but it is still there for those smaller and older ATV's that used it. I've honestly never used it in any of those installations, not even with the older ATVs....but everything is still present. I doubt we had anything changed with those ECU's too...so the program should be present. Getting to work with the Talon ECU....I have no idea there.

I totally understand about the speed sensitivity thought. High speeds with a sensitive power steering unit can be a bit sketchy.

Thanks for clarifying.

Tapping into/utilizing the VSS signal on the Talon is very straight forward, it is very old technology. Hopefully, your ECU likes the pulses and does the right thing with them.

PM sent.

 

[PaulF]

Received the SATV 400W unit today and it is HUGE. There is plenty of room so mounting is shouldn't be too much of a challenge. I will start a new thread showing the mounting, joints, adapters and wiring. In the meantime, here is some info.

I bought and will be testing 2 different Chinese units for comparison, this 400 Watt and another that is rated at 380. I don't have the 380 yet but the gearbox is identical and the motor is a little shorter and bigger in diameter.

We will start with the SATV 400 watt unit.
Here is the good...

• As stated above, it is huge and heavy (see pic below). I have not seen a comparison photo before so I did not expect something this substantial. I am pleased!!!
• Like the OEM unit, it too converts 12V lower amps through the ECU to 6V higher amps (this must be an industry standard) BUT the motor feed wires on the 400W unit are much larger (8 gauge vs 12 gauge) and shorter (1.5 feet vs 6.5 feet) and will eliminate the voltage drop (12% vs 1.5%) issues the OEM system has.
• This input splines are identical to OEM and will fit the shaft from the steering wheel without any adaptation as long as I can get it mounted in the correct location.
• It has 50% more watts and produces almost twice as much torque than OEM.
• The torque application curve is more spread out (see chart below).

And now the bad

• The battery wires are undersized for the 25 Amps it draws over the 6 feet of wire. However, when utilizing the winch wires, these wires can be shortened to a couple feet and that is much more tolerable.
• The unit is longer from the mount base to the input shaft. This means that to utilize the stock input shaft, a drop mount will need to be fabricated. I think it is doable.
• The output shaft is some odd 22mm X 20 Spline. However, it is shorter than OEM and the lower shaft on the Talon is a slip shaft with lots of adjustment. It looks like an adapter from the output shaft to the stock shaft will be the easiest to do.
• The mounting plate included is for the input side and is completely useless for the Talon. A custom drop mount will be needed.
• The shafts included in the kit are basically useless. The upper one is not needed. I could use the lower one and hack the $300 OEM slip shaft but I am not going to do that unless I can't fabricate an adapter.
• As I suspected, the specs on it are overrated like almost all Chinese products are (they must have a different measuring standard down there). The unit is really only around 310 Watts BUT it produces 44 Lb/Ft of torque on the output shaft compared to a measly 23/25 that the OEM unit puts out. It will be a VAST improvement over stock if I can retrofit it.

I set up a test bench with input measured with a torque wrench and output measured with a 1 foot lever and a scale...

Here is a table with various input torques and the corresponding output torque and watts used. These are approximate (taken from video freeze frames) and probably not too accurate but the 2 things that stick out are that at the upper end, the 400W unit uses less watts to produce the same torque and then continues with more torque. This is exactly what I wanted to see, hopefully it translates into much better steering...

	Stock 2WD		Stock 4WD		SATV 400W
Inch Pound Input	Foot Pound Output	Watts	Foot Pound Output	Watts	Foot Pound Output	Watts
10​	2​	14​	2​	12​	1​	14​
15​	4​	19​	4​	19​	5​	24​
20​	8​	41​	6​	35​	9​	45​
25​	13​	104​	11​	84​	14​	74​
30​	19​	181​	19​	170​	19​	96​
35​	22​	184​	25​	222​	24​	135​
40​	23​	185​	25​	221​	25​	155​
45​	23​	189​	25​	221​	31​	204​
50​					35​	243​
55​					40​	304​
60​					44​	310​

 

[Fyathyrio]

This deserves it's own thread since it has nothing to do with the epowersteering kit.

 

[DRZRon1]

great great R&D, kudos, for the VSS, are you thinking just wire it up to the 400W unit and hope for the best?

asking here, is the Talon VSS signal DC pulses off one of the sensors? just a DC pros switch counting teeth?