Talon Honda Talon Shift Problem, Pioneer 1000 too.

[popeye]

Then you are risking the same issue in reverse.

What's funny/sad/dumb is that this could be solved by a $10 piece of plastic. The low gate needs to be further back and smaller imo.

Mine is at the dealer, was supposed to be ready last Saturday, then yesterday, so hopefully today is the day. I'm planning on making a new gate out of some 3/8" uhmw or similar. Basically just copy the stock one, but have low 1/4" further back and smaller. I'm not going to have my machine at the dealer for a month again because of this stupid design flaw.

If the shifter is in the low gate, it should be in low, period.

Mine has ground, or poped outgoing into low also, probably 4-5 times, never happened until temps got below 50 degrees. @Tigermark watched it happen twice in one day. I’ve never “beat” on my machine, and have found the same thing everyone else agrees with. The gate going into low needs to be 3/8” further back, both the opening and the the beginning to it, and the furthest back part of it. When I shift my talon X into low, I have to now stop, wait for the instrument cluster to read L befor I can move forward. As cheap as the field is, it should not be acceptable for what we pay for these machines.... call if growing pains of a first years rig.

I owned a pioneer 1000 for 3 years and 3000 miles and never had this issue, I truly believe that it’s the plastic shift gate in the talon


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[spentcoins]

Paulf has already made a much better shift gate that fixes the problem some of us are having.

What did he do different Bob?

 

[hondabob]

He made a new shift gate giving low a 7mm over shift. I'm getting by with about 3mm. It looks like some Talons are stiff shifting until they are warmed up. Mine is working so good I'm not going to get it fixed right now. My 2019 is set up for my night rides and I need it everyday. It just takes a millisecond to wiggle the shift lever and we have to stop to shift so its not a big deal. If the shift lever is loaded forward in the shift gate its not fully into gear. All shift cables have some rope effect and a much more stiff shift cable may fix this problem. Honda is probably working on this, the suspension settings, and the air intake system.

 

[jamesh]

So I just adjusted my shift cable. It was slightly rear of center. The adjustment is very small and I ended up with it being slightly forward of center rather than perfectly centered about neutral. Took it around the block and shifted several times into all the gears. Seems to be getting all the gears properly. I did several shifts back and forth from reverse to low. I got one bang start going from reverse to low. I think for the future, I will always gently apply throttle when first engaging low to reduce the severity of any accidental bang starts. I think these are just going to happen sometimes, no matter how correctly the cable is adjusted due to the way the gears are designed to engage.

My issue with this is that reverse to low is often a shift I make maneuvering knarly rock hill climbs. It will need to be a very concerted effort not to just shift and go, but rather shift, feather throttle to ensure engagement....then go.

I do think shift adjustment was necessary despite having still gotten a bang start. It does seem to have more positive engagement with the new adjustment.

 

[PaulF]

He made a new shift gate giving low a 7mm over shift. I'm getting by with about 3mm. It looks like some Talons are stiff shifting until they are warmed up. Mine is working so good I'm not going to get it fixed right now. My 2019 is set up for my night rides and I need it everyday. It just takes a millisecond to wiggle the shift lever and we have to stop to shift so its not a big deal. If the shift lever is loaded forward in the shift gate its not fully into gear. All shift cables have some rope effect and a much more stiff shift cable may fix this problem. Honda is probably working on this, the suspension settings, and the air intake system.

Bob, Check you PM please.

Prototype #2 and 0W-20 in Sub Trans tested at Sand Hollow for 5 days. Temps in the 40's to 60's. 170 miles total. Although most of the miles were street/dunes/trails, the majority of the hours and shifting were rock crawling. Purposely shifted without looking at indicator to see if there was any improvement. MUCH improved and only one instance where I got a slight grind into Low but that was my fault for not stopping completely. Overall, I was very pleased but wanted something more assuring that I am in Low without looking so I added a bit to the rear of the gate.

Shift gate Prototype #3 design complete. Printing now and should be ready for testing tomorrow. After a bit more testing, I may offer this for sale if there is any interest...

 

[kidamer]

Bob, Check you PM please.

Prototype #2 and 0W-20 in Sub Trans tested at Sand Hollow for 5 days. Temps in the 40's to 60's. 170 miles total. Although most of the miles were street/dunes/trails, the majority of the hours and shifting were rock crawling. Purposely shifted without looking at indicator to see if there was any improvement. MUCH improved and only one instance where I got a slight grind into Low but that was my fault for not stopping completely. Overall, I was very pleased but wanted something more assuring that I am in Low without looking so I added a bit to the rear of the gate.

Shift gate Prototype #3 design complete. Printing now and should be ready for testing tomorrow. After a bit more testing, I may offer this for sale if there is any interest...

View attachment 184384

I would think there would be some lol

 

[kidamer]

So I just adjusted my shift cable. It was slightly rear of center. The adjustment is very small and I ended up with it being slightly forward of center rather than perfectly centered about neutral. Took it around the block and shifted several times into all the gears. Seems to be getting all the gears properly. I did several shifts back and forth from reverse to low. I got one bang start going from reverse to low. I think for the future, I will always gently apply throttle when first engaging low to reduce the severity of any accidental bang starts. I think these are just going to happen sometimes, no matter how correctly the cable is adjusted due to the way the gears are designed to engage.

My issue with this is that reverse to low is often a shift I make maneuvering knarly rock hill climbs. It will need to be a very concerted effort not to just shift and go, but rather shift, feather throttle to ensure engagement....then go.

I do think shift adjustment was necessary despite having still gotten a bang start. It does seem to have more positive engagement with the new adjustment.

did the display show you was in low or did it have the - displayed?

 

[PaulF]

did the display show you was in low or did it have the - displayed?

Neither really. I prematurely pulled it to Low from High without coming to a complete stop and it ground into Low a little. Nothing major and went right in. Just pointing out it will still grind, even when fully in low if you don't stop.

 

[hondabob]

I just turned a bit over 1,000 miles on my 2020 Talon R. It shifts ok but I'm careful to make sure its fully into gear by making sure the shift lever is in the middle of the shift gate and will wiggle forward and aft. So far it has been shifting into low ok on cold start but I ease into the throttle to make sure I don't get the shift bang. My 2019 will grind occasionally even with a quick shift and with about a 3mm over shift so I don't do anymore testing on cold start. I use high range until is warms up to avoid the grinding and it warms up quickly so its not a problem for me. My idle speed warmed up is near 1,600. I'm thinking there are several things that are making this cold shift problem. Idle speed, oil temp, different parts in the sub trans, etc. It looks like there is enough owners with this issue that Honda must be looking into it. I think the low gear engagement dogs are the same as the Pioneer. An easy fix may be a super stiff shift cable with less or no rope effect for the Talon and Talon 4.

 

[Lil_Steve]

Shift gate Prototype #3 design complete. Printing now and should be ready for testing tomorrow. After a bit more testing, I may offer this for sale if there is any interest...

I'm definitely interested.

 

[PaulF]

I just turned a bit over 1,000 miles on my 2020 Talon R. It shifts ok but I'm careful to make sure its fully into gear by making sure the shift lever is in the middle of the shift gate and will wiggle forward and aft. So far it has been shifting into low ok on cold start but I ease into the throttle to make sure I don't get the shift bang. My 2019 will grind occasionally even with a quick shift and with about a 3mm over shift so I don't do anymore testing on cold start. I use high range until is warms up to avoid the grinding and it warms up quickly so its not a problem for me. My idle speed warmed up is near 1,600. I'm thinking there are several things that are making this cold shift problem. Idle speed, oil temp, different parts in the sub trans, etc. It looks like there is enough owners with this issue that Honda must be looking into it. I think the low gear engagement dogs are the same as the Pioneer. An easy fix may be a super stiff shift cable with less or no rope effect for the Talon and Talon 4.

1600 at idle warmed up may be out of spec. You may want to check your Thermostat, Coolant Temp Sensor, Idle Air Control Valve or for a vacuum leak.

You can compare idle to temp, stock idle tables are as follows...

 

[jamesh]

did the display show you was in low or did it have the - displayed?

The dash displayed L

 

[PaulF]

Final prototype done. Final fit and testing to take place over the next week. Design will be finalized after testing.

$40 shipped in the 48 states. Hawaii, Alaska and Canada upon request and will be a few dollars more depending on shipping cost.

These take 16 hours each to print so if you want one, PM me and I will place you in line first come, first served...

 

[UPSMAN]

Mine has ground, or poped outgoing into low also, probably 4-5 times, never happened until temps got below 50 degrees. @Tigermark watched it happen twice in one day. I’ve never “beat” on my machine, and have found the same thing everyone else agrees with. The gate going into low needs to be 3/8” further back, both the opening and the the beginning to it, and the furthest back part of it. When I shift my talon X into low, I have to now stop, wait for the instrument cluster to read L befor I can move forward. As cheap as the field is, it should not be acceptable for what we pay for these machines.... call if growing pains of a first years rig.

I owned a pioneer 1000 for 3 years and 3000 miles and never had this issue, I truly believe that it’s the plastic shift gate in the talon


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Isn't easy to just grind out the slot a half of inch more so there will be no problem instead of keep driving it

 

[PaulF]

Isn't easy to just grind out the slot a half of inch more so there will be no problem instead of keep driving it

Yes, you can do that too as Bob and many others have.

Be aware that there is also metal under the plastic at that point and there is very little extra plastic (maybe 2 or 3 mm) before you start grinding into the metal part. Also, to go back 1/2" you will start grinding into the console cover itself and the angle of the shifter rod gets pretty steep at that point so you are not getting 1 mm of travel for each 1 mm of material removed.

I purposely avoided removing any metal or the console with my modified gate. That is why it is moved forward and extended back. It is to the limit that the underlying metal allows and reduces the rod angle as much as possible to get the most throw possible.

The arrows point out the underlying metal and the added area (indicated by the box) also makes sure you are in Low and holds it there.

At that camera angle, you can just barely see the metal at the rear...

 

[Jefferson87]

Yes, you can do that too as Bob and many others have.

Be aware that there is also metal under the plastic at that point and there is very little extra plastic (maybe 2 or 3 mm) before you start grinding into the metal part. Also, to go back 1/2" you will start grinding into the console cover itself and the angle of the shifter rod gets pretty steep at that point so you are not getting 1 mm of travel for each 1 mm of material removed.

I purposely avoided removing any metal or the console with my modified gate. That is why it is moved forward and extended back. It is to the limit that the underlying metal allows and reduces the rod angle as much as possible to get the most throw possible.

The arrows point out the underlying metal and the added area (indicated by the box) also makes sure you are in Low and holds it there.

At that camera angle, you can just barely see the metal at the rear...

Good work.

What's strange is when I had my console completely off and was playing with the shifter with just the key on. I feel like I remember going past low and getting the - symbol if I went untill it was hitting the metal.

I just ordered a stock gate from cycle parts that way I can grind on mine a bit and still go back to stock for warranty work or if I grind it too far.

Once I get it figured out I may have my father in law machine something up out of uhmw or similar.

I think we should encourage everyone having issues to get ahold of honda and express their opinions. From what I've read they are just telling people that they aren't coming to a complete stop so far.

 

[hondabob]

Paul your shift gate worked great today. I will be testing every morning on cold start. Moving everything forward gave the necessary over shift without cutting into the metal frame work. It more then doubled what was possible by cutting the stock shift gate back to the metal frame. Jefferson is right, call Honda if your having a shift problem and make sure the shift cable is adjusted in the center of the neutral gate. NOTE: The forward push pin on the drivers side hits inside the cover. Use a large screw driver to go down through the shift gate and hold the plastic cover outboard.

 

[PaulF]

Bob,
Thanks for testing and the update. Please continue testing and let me know if you see anything that needs improvement or changing.

I also tested this weekend. Was at the dunes but used low a few time without issue.

However, when it was 30 degrees out Saturday night and was loading my (cold) machine onto the trailer using Low, the shifter would not move back enough to fall into the modified Low gate and gave me perfect indication that it was NOT in gear even without looking at the dash indicator. The sub-trans then "chattered" a little and she popped in and the lever went back and over. This positive engagement would have not happened with the stock gate and owners that are not aware would have assumed it was in Low and might have got the "bang" when loading it on the trailer.

So far I am very pleased with the results. The current version of the shifter in my machine is also slightly thicker to make it more robust and it fits into the console with less gap and looks better too.

 

[jamesh]

Paul your shift gate worked great today. I will be testing every morning on cold start. Moving everything forward gave the necessary over shift without cutting into the metal frame work. It more then doubled what was possible by cutting the stock shift gate back to the metal frame. Jefferson is right, call Honda if your having a shift problem and make sure the shift cable is adjusted in the center of the neutral gate. NOTE: The forward push pin on the drivers side hits inside the cover. Use a large screw driver to go down through the shift gate and hold the plastic cover outboard.

What do you mean by 'moving everything forward'?

 

[PaulF]

What do you mean by 'moving everything forward'?

For a full explanation, go back and read the entire thread but mainly these posts by me...

Talon - Honda Talon Shift Problem, Pioneer 1000 too.

Pass this info along to other Talon and Pioneer 1000 owners. How to prevent the Loud Bang. It may occur more often when the engine is cold. This can occur on the Pioneer 1000 too. See page # 33 in the Talon owners manual. Make sure the sub trans is fully into gear before applying the throttle...

hondasxs.com

Talon - Honda Talon Shift Problem, Pioneer 1000 too.

Then you are risking the same issue in reverse. What's funny/sad/dumb is that this could be solved by a $10 piece of plastic. The low gate needs to be further back and smaller imo. Mine is at the dealer, was supposed to be ready last Saturday, then yesterday, so hopefully today is the day...

hondasxs.com

Talon - Honda Talon Shift Problem, Pioneer 1000 too.

Then you are risking the same issue in reverse. What's funny/sad/dumb is that this could be solved by a $10 piece of plastic. The low gate needs to be further back and smaller imo. Mine is at the dealer, was supposed to be ready last Saturday, then yesterday, so hopefully today is the day...

hondasxs.com

Talon - Honda Talon Shift Problem, Pioneer 1000 too.

Then you are risking the same issue in reverse. What's funny/sad/dumb is that this could be solved by a $10 piece of plastic. The low gate needs to be further back and smaller imo. Mine is at the dealer, was supposed to be ready last Saturday, then yesterday, so hopefully today is the day...

hondasxs.com