L
Couldn't tell you, you must be one of the lucky ones. They didn't built any extra into the system so if there is just one little thing out of spec, you are going to have heavy steering.
I am running 30X10 Terrabites at 12 psi during these tests.
There is no down side, I can only see upside to it.
Less heat generation. The stock wiring is losing 10% of the watts generated. That is 20+ watts creating heat in the wire loom and not powering the motor. And when the tunnel gets hot, the wire increases in resistance, causing more voltage loss and even more heat generation and degraded steering. It is a viscous cycle, what was Honda thinking?
The ECU is running much cooler, probably because it isn't having to work as hard. Under the seat during static testing, the wheel was binding on concrete causing the PS to max out and after about 5 minutes of testing I could barely touch the ECU. Where it is now, I turned lock to lock for 10 minutes (mainly in disbelief) and I can put my hand around the ECU and it is just warm to the touch.
The amp meter also bears out what is going on. Stock, the steering would stick and amp meter would simply peg out at 35 amps and the wheel would not turn. The wiring was not passing the energy to the motor, it was using some to create heat in the wire. Now the meter jumps up to 25 amps and as soon as the wheel breaks lose, the amps drop to around 15-20 while turning the wheel.
Moving the ECU just lowers the stress on the electrical and electronics, I see no downside.
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Terry, thanks for the interest!I absolutely would be in for a plug and play solution to this problem. Be glad to send $300 right now!Hope you make this a reality Paul!
As soon as I get more testing done and confirm how much of the problem this fixes, I will put up a poll and see what interest there is (assuming it works as good as it seems it will). Interest will need to be pretty good because although 4 of the 6 required plugs are common, at least 1 (and maybe 2) of them will be custom builds and that always entails some sort of minimum order so I will need to gauge the interest before I go and order a bunch of plugs I can't use.
After driving 10+ Talons of every variety over the last couple years and experiencing weak steering to some degree in most of them, I am fairly certain this will be a popular item but I just need to make sure before I invest tens of thousands of dollars in it.
@PaulF I would pay for a plug and play kit from you too!! This is great news!
Great work! We really appreciate your effort to finding a fix. The lack of power steering has been one of my biggest complaints on the talon.
First off, I am not very educated in 12v wiring, so please forgive me if this is a stupid thought. Would there be any alternative ways of approaching the fix? Could the power wire that is feeding the power steering be put to a relay and then have the relay feed power direct from battery? Maybe from a second battery mounted in front or just larger cables going back to battery? Basically taking the computers control away from the power steering and providing needed power.
First off, I am not very educated in 12v wiring, so please forgive me if this is a stupid thought. Would there be any alternative ways of approaching the fix? Could the power wire that is feeding the power steering be put to a relay and then have the relay feed power direct from battery? Maybe from a second battery mounted in front or just larger cables going back to battery? Basically taking the computers control away from the power steering and providing needed power.
That is a great question but simple relays will not work for this application. Relays are an on/off switch but the PS ECU inverts the voltage down and varies it from 0-6 volts and and cranks the amperage up and varies from 0-35 amps depending on demand/assist needs. It also jumps polarity depending on if is assisting left or right.
The ECU is actually just a fancy bunch of variable electronic relays (mosfets) that take a low voltage/amperage signal from the torque sensor (switch if you will) and "relay" varying battery power to the motor. The ECU is basically a fast/smart relay.
Thanks. Lot more going on there than I realized.
What about making a quick and easy plug and play to make it think its always in 4wd to get that extra help?
I won't permanently do it on the stock wiring but you could try if you want and it would help a little but now all you are doing is pushing 35 amps (instead of 30) over a wire designed to only carry 20. Not ideal, especially when the wire starts to warm up (even get hot with extended use) and the resistance increases and the voltage drop increases with it until you have to stop and let the wire cool down so you can get your assist back.
Trying to compensate for an inferior wire by pushing more amps is not good electrical practice because it doesn't work very well, generates excessive heat and can be dangerous if extreme. Just try doing in your house and see what the inspector thinks about it
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Sheetmetalfab
Liberal kryptonite. truth and logic….
Lifetime Member
Got it. If only Honda would have done it right to begin with.I won't permanently do it on the stock wiring but you could try if you want and it would help a little but now all you are doing is pushing 35 amps (instead of 30) over a wire designed to only carry 20. Not ideal, especially when the wire starts to warm up (even get hot with extended use) and the resistance increases and the voltage drop increases with it until you have to stop and let the wire cool down so you can get your assist back.
Trying to compensate for an inferior wire by pushing more amps is not good electrical practice because it doesn't work very well, generates excessive heat and can be dangerous if extreme. Just try doing in your house and see what the inspector thinks about it
I’d be interested in the kit if your kit.
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I would buy one! Have you installed the torq locker yet? The weak power steering is the main reason I have held off on the locker.
Progress on procuring parts for the plug and play harness have begun. 4 of the plugs are common, one is rare and the 6th doesn't exist (yet). I have a custom molding outfit looking at making the rare and non existent plugs, should know something in a few days.
I have the locker sitting on my desk. I had the same concern but now with the ECU relocated, I am optimistic that it will be acceptable. I will install the locker this week and hopefully begin testing the steering with the locker next weekend (weather permitting).
Stay tuned!
1
Once again, I am blown away by the lack of forethought, and proper engineering in this industry, especially from the likes of Honda. Just amazing.
My hat is off to you, PaulF.
My hat is off to you, PaulF.
TerryH
Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
I'm sure you probably already have checked places like this but here's the link to where we get all our needed connectors for automotive repair. We send them a few pictures of what we need and they seem to always come up with it.
Automotive Connectors | Connector Experts
Looking for the best automotive connectors on the market? Connector Experts has an expansive collection of products. Shop for top-quality connectors.
connectorexperts.com
Neohio
Beast of the East
Lifetime Member
Supporting Member
Club Contributor
I have used corsa-technic.com with success as well.
Heilind.com is another resource.
Heilind.com is another resource.
I'm sure you probably already have checked places like this but here's the link to where we get all our needed connectors for automotive repair. We send them a few pictures of what we need and they seem to always come up with it.
Automotive Connectors | Connector Experts
Looking for the best automotive connectors on the market? Connector Experts has an expansive collection of products. Shop for top-quality connectors.
Thanks guys and yup, tried all of them and a dozen more. They all have the common 4, those are easy. And as of an hour ago, I have now sourced the somewhat rare plug so I am down to only 1.
It is the 21 pin. It is a special ECU connector only used on control modules. I found the manufacturer of the plugs but the male plug only comes in a PCB format so an inline version will need to be designed and molded around standard available pin terminals. It is doable, just need to find out R&D cost and minimum order stuff.
I am close! Still more real world testing to do to make sure that once I determine costs/price that the is cost vs. benefit is enough to justify this mod. I think it is so I am headed out to the dunes next weekend with a tire/wheel combo that gave me absolute fits last fall. If that goes well, I will be extremely pleased!
TerryH
Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
I assumed you were way past that but figured I'd ask just in case. Looking forward to hearing your results after the dune test. I'm getting the RB3 billet rack in the Talon in the next couple of weeks. Don't think it'll improve this issue at all but should bulletproof the system with the JSports tie rods I have already.
Hondasxs
Club Founder
Staff member
Lifetime Member
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Did you locate the 2 pin brown connector? I have been unable to find that one before giving up and cutting one off a used harness.
I'm fairly sure I found the 21 pin, but only the one side as you mentioned.
I have not had a need to looked for the others yet.
If you need help with some of the connector MOQ's to test... I'll split it with you to keep on hand here.
Thanks.
Yup, sourced the brown connector at 1 supplier and have another ready to make it (and the male 21 pin) for me from scratch if necessary to get all of my order. Cost will dictate which way I go.
I am certain I can get everything from 1 place and they are going to send me 1 of each for samples to make sure they are the correct connectors and terminals.
If you need any of the connectors, let me know and I can order some extra and get you a good price since my order will be fairly decent in numbers.
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