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Talon Plug after turbo install

Tuxedo

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Here is a pick of the plug after turbo install, about 5 miles and a quick chop at the end to test the plug.

Thoughts? Had a regional tech at the Honda dealership check it and got that they look fine and Honda’s tend to run a tad lean.

23AC43F7-E2EF-4259-AB27-41514DB89DB9.jpeg
 
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hondabob

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Don't know about the latest Turbo technology but in the 70,s a quick throttle chop for plug readings would kill the turbo bearings. The Turbo is probably on the lean side to meet the California ARB off road emissions. Hopefully in the future we can have a flash on the rich side for racing.
 
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Tuxedo

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Don't know about the latest Turbo technology but in the 70,s a quick throttle chop for plug readings would kill the turbo bearings. The Turbo is probably on the lean side to meet the California ARB off road emissions. Hopefully in the future we can have a flash on the rich side for racing.
Well that’s the old school mechanic in me. Thanks for the tip, just trying to play it safe and get some thoughts.

Defiantly not looking to crater a motor! Now a turbo I could live with, barely.
 

jamesh

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Did you check it before the turbo install?
 

Tuxedo

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Did you check it before the turbo install?
Honestly didn’t have a reason to, got it installed happy as a clam then started seeing the posts on the turbo running lean and cratering engines. So here I am, however, that would have been a great idea looking back.
 

jamesh

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Honestly didn’t have a reason to, got it installed happy as a clam then started seeing the posts on the turbo running lean and cratering engines. So here I am, however, that would have been a great idea looking back.
I'd be curious if that's normal from running lean without the turbo.
 

PaulF

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Your plugs look similar to my N/A motor and I am at 5,000 feet. Don't put too much stock in the plug reading, it only shows you a small window into the AFR scale. Plug reading is good for racing but not really reliable for street or offroad where the throttle varies so much. You might be just fine at WOT but what about cruise. You would need to do a pull/chop under several scenarios to get a better idea. You really need a Wideband and logging to get the entire picture.

Honda's do not "run lean", they are tuned at the lean end of normal (just like almost everything else out there for mileage and emissions reasons).

Problem is that it uses a narrow band O2 and it can only work in the 14.4 to 15:1 AFR range in closed loop. Anything other than that is open loop guess work that requires a dyno tune. Most tunes are done near sea level and Honda's factory Barometric Compensation is not very accurate at higher altitudes.

The canned tunes I have tried at 5000 feet are all pretty rich WOT up here, one of them was in the 11.5:1 range and the tuner targeted 12.2:1 at sea level. The other was 12.5:1 and the tuner was targeting 13:1 at about 600 feet. Anything richer than 13:1 just too rich and a waste of fuel in my opinion for an N/A motor.

All the tunes (no matter who wrote them) will always run at 14.7:1 at idle and light cruise on the Talon because that is all the NB O2 can do, even on the Turbo.

I ended up tuning it myself an I am getting 13:1 WOT and did some trickery to get around 14:1 idle and light cruise at 5,200 feet.

I also adjusted the Baro Compensation factors to base them off of my tune's altitude/baro pressure and at 8,000 and 3,000 feet, the AFR's were still spot on. Needs more testing at sea level and 10,000 feet but I have it pretty close to where it needs to be for now.
 
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Tuxedo

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Your plugs look similar to my N/A motor and I am at 5,000 feet. Don't put too much stock in the plug reading, it only shows you a small window into the AFR scale. Plug reading is good for racing but not really reliable for street or offroad where the throttle varies so much. You might be just fine at WOT but what about cruise. You would need to do a pull/chop under several scenarios to get a better idea. You really need a Wideband and logging to get the entire picture.

Honda's do not "run lean", they are tuned at the lean end of normal (just like almost everything else out there for mileage and emissions reasons).

Problem is that it uses a narrow band O2 and it can only work in the 14.4 to 15:1 AFR range in closed loop. Anything other than that is open loop guess work that requires a dyno tune. Most tunes are done near sea level and Honda's factory Barometric Compensation is not very accurate at higher altitudes.

The canned tunes I have tried at 5000 feet are all pretty rich WOT up here, one of them was in the 11.5:1 range and the tuner targeted 12.2:1 at sea level. The other was 12.5:1 and the tuner was targeting 13:1 at about 600 feet. Anything richer than 13:1 just too rich and a waste of fuel in my opinion for an N/A motor.

All the tunes (no matter who wrote them) will always run at 14.7:1 at idle and light cruise on the Talon because that is all the NB O2 can do, even on the Turbo.

I ended up tuning it myself an I am getting 13:1 WOT and did some trickery to get around 14:1 idle and light cruise at 5,200 feet.

I also adjusted the Baro Compensation factors to base them off of my tune's altitude/baro pressure and at 8,000 and 3,000 feet, the AFR's were still spot on. Needs more testing at sea level and 10,000 feet but I have it pretty close to where it needs to be for now.
Where you located? I sit around 4500 feet here in SLC, thanks for the thoughts on this as I appreciate them. I have to admit I am more of a guy to get it where it’s right and have fun in the machine. I am not looking for the most out of the machine or going to race it anytime soon. Fun in the doons and crawl up the trails with the family is where our joy sits.
 
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PaulF

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I am in the Salt Lake area (southern end of the valley) at about 4600 feet and tune here and at Little Sahara about 5200 feet (I was using round numbers for simplicity sake).

You won't be able to do anything with a Turbo tune until someone like DynoJet gets a hold of a Turbo and writes their own tunes. Might be a while. And even then, it will be locked and you won't be able to "adjust" it. Unless the Jackson tune is unlocked, the Turbo is going to be a bit of a challenge to self tune because the base tune is going to be miles different from the N/A base tune. You need the base maps to get started and if they are locked, you have to start from scratch and that can be dangerous not knowing where to start on a turbo.

We should get together and go ride :)
 

Tuxedo

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Small world, Again thanks for the thoughts on this.
We should get together to ride, we just finalized a ride next to go from Hurricane to the Grand Canyon and back. Looking to hitImogene Pass as soon as it opens.
 
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PaulF

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Small world, I am up on the bench in South Jordan next to Daybreak. Again thanks for the thoughts on this.
We should get together to ride, we just finalized a ride next month on the 13th to go from Hurricane to the Grand Canyon and back. Looking to hitImogene Pass as soon as it opens.
Hell, we are practically neighbors. I am the one pulling doubles, GMC 1 ton, 36' 5th Wheel and the bright green Talon in tow. Just got back from Sand Hollow, man we had a blast!!!...

1581722688877.png
 

HondaTech

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My GMs AFR gauge is reading in the low 12s at idle and hits 11s when revved at a stop with the turbo.

He said when he pulled the muffler to get the O2 bung welded it was sooty inside.
 

PaulF

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My GMs AFR gauge is reading in the low 12s at idle and hits 11s when revved at a stop with the turbo.

He said when he pulled the muffler to get the O2 bung welded it was sooty inside.
If that is true then JR's tune has completely bypassed the O2 sensor/closed loop or something is stopping the ECM from entering closed loop. And that is too rich, even for a Turbo (might be acceptable at WOT pull but not idle or rev at stop).

JR is playing it safe at those AFR's or something is wrong. In either case, that will not pass CARB.

Send me some log files, I would LOVE to see what that tune looks like!!!

Looks like back to the drawing board for JR! Glad I didn't jump on that band wagon :cool:
 

HondaTech

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If that is true then JR's tune has completely bypassed the O2 sensor/closed loop or something is stopping the ECM from entering closed loop. And that is too rich, even for a Turbo (might be acceptable at WOT pull but not idle or rev at stop).

JR is playing it safe at those AFR's or something is wrong. In either case, that will not pass CARB.

Send me some log files, I would LOVE to see what that tune looks like!!!

Looks like back to the drawing board for JR! Glad I didn't jump on that band wagon :cool:
We dont anything to log with, except for the boost and AFR that the gauge logs.

We figured that they were being conservative, when flashing I believe you select whether you have a "AC" model. Maybe the tune is different for them.

He hasn't gotten to drive it with the gauge to see the full spectrum of the entire tune. I'm also not sure what the engine temp was when he sent me the video after he got it installed.
 

Tuxedo

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Utah
Hell, we are practically neighbors. I am the one pulling doubles, GMC 1 ton, 36' 5th Wheel and the bright green Talon in tow. Just got back from Sand Hollow, man we had a blast!!!...

View attachment 183834
Nice setup, we frequent sand hollow along with little Sahara also. I’m close to 60’ with my setup (truck included) so haven’t tried doubles.
 

HondaTech

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If that is true then JR's tune has completely bypassed the O2 sensor/closed loop or something is stopping the ECM from entering closed loop. And that is too rich, even for a Turbo (might be acceptable at WOT pull but not idle or rev at stop).

JR is playing it safe at those AFR's or something is wrong. In either case, that will not pass CARB.

Send me some log files, I would LOVE to see what that tune looks like!!!

Looks like back to the drawing board for JR! Glad I didn't jump on that band wagon :cool:
So after some more info, it appears his turbo is idling around 13-13.5 when warm and spikes 11-11.5 when revved.

Max boost recorded during a ride was 11.5lbs.
 

PaulF

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Nice setup, we frequent sand hollow along with little Sahara also. I’m close to 60’ with my setup (truck included) so haven’t tried doubles.
I'm over 70' but don't tell the UHP :cool: Saw a dozen UHP on the way to and back from Sand Hollow and not one of them even took a second look. I think they have better things to do than pull over an over length rig. I have a lot of sway control and very visible safety chains to the frame of the 5er. Drives straight as an arrow (even in high winds) so as long as I am not swaying or driving like a jackass they seem to leave me alone.

Anyway, we are headed to Little Sahara on Sunday for a day trip. If by any chance you are planning the same, let's try to hook up.
 
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