P700 Possible compression release problem

[Samsmc1]

I've been fighting with a 700 Pioneer now for about a year or so thinking that it was hydraulicing on me (I would pull the lower spark plug, spin the engine over. Replace the plug and it would start instantly).. As an aside, I looked several times in the parts fish for a compression release and didn't find one. Recently I saw a reference about one in one of these forums, so I googled it and sure enough, there was a reference about one, so I pulled up a closer view of a cam and there it was.
This engine runs perfectly, so I'm pretty sure there isn't and valve adjustment or wear problem.
I have two questions, What can screw up on the cam and how can I determine that this is the problem?
Thanks
Sam

 

[Admin]

 

[906UP]

HondaTech...... aka @Hello_Darkness might have an answer for you. Just give him time to find your post

 

[DRZRon1]

I've been fighting with a 700 Pioneer now for about a year or so thinking that it was hydraulicing on me (I would pull the lower spark plug, spin the engine over. Replace the plug and it would start instantly).. As an aside, I looked several times in the parts fish for a compression release and didn't find one. Recently I saw a reference about one in one of these forums, so I googled it and sure enough, there was a reference about one, so I pulled up a closer view of a cam and there it was.
This engine runs perfectly, so I'm pretty sure there isn't and valve adjustment or wear problem.
I have two questions, What can screw up on the cam and how can I determine that this is the problem?
Thanks
Sam

off the wall here, pull spark plug and rotate engine slowly, should see the exhaust valve lift a little on the way around, this decompresses the cylinder until the engine starts then centrifugal force keeps the mechanism outta the way

I’ve had the mechanism go bad on small engines over time


I guess if your cam is worn as well it can not be lifting that exhaust valve enough, I’d check valve lash as well

gonna take a little digging


could be fuel leaking in hydrolocking as well…..

 

[bigc]

how many hours is on the machine

 

[Samsmc1]

I'll give you a little history on the machine.
It was purchased at IAA in Mississippi by a local used car dealer with literally no external damage on it.
He had it delivered to Houston. When he started it up, he heard a very bad rattle in the engine. A local Honda dealer told him $2500.00 minimum to repair it. My son just happened to be working the service counter that day and called me to see it I wanted it. Yes of course I wanted it.
My son pulled the engine for me and I pulled it apart. My son also ran the VIN thru Honda and discovered that the unit still had a year of factory Honda extended warranty on it.
The shaft that supports the forward - neutral - reverse gears (which is smaller than my little finger) had snapped. It had destroyed the main case plus the rear engine cover along with all of the parts in the shift mechanism..
Even though this Pioneer had no signs of ever having a trailer hitch ball mount or anything chained to the rear of the machine, Honda refused to warranty the damage claiming that the unit had been "used for pulling stumps". I later heard from a dealer that Honda had refused a lot of these claims saying the unit had been shifted from forward to reverse while still moving and that's what caused the damage.
I was abbe to buy the cases and nearly everything I needed in ebay to repair the engine with the exception of the shaft that broke and the rear engine cover that had to come from Honda. I also bought new pieces to replace the oil pump while I was in there.
I rebuilt the head , honed the cylinder and replace the rings and all seals. The engine had about 1300 hours on it as I remember before I got into it. It looked very nice inside. It still runs and shifts fine.
I have been looking at the fuel system all this time thinking that it was dumping fuel into the cylinder when the engine was turned off causing the engine to hydraulic. Pull the plug, spin the engine over, replace the plus and it starts instantly and runs fine.
I've been in the motorcycle business over 50 years now and I've never seen something of this poor design quality from Honda.
I spoke to a friends son the other day who is a tech for an east Texas ATV dealer who told me he had seen the spring in a 500 Honda sxs cam break and cause the same problem. I'm going to give the engine a good bath and pull the head shortly.

What can you tell me about these engines? Have you run into this same problem before?

Thanks
Sam

 

[Remington]

so I'm pretty sure there isn't and valve adjustment

Are you sure about that? The P7’s need them adjusted alot according to the many threads here. When was the last time you checked them?

Ill read your last post when Iv got alot of time.🥳🤣

 

[DRZRon1]

I'll give you a little history on the machine.
It was purchased at IAA in Mississippi by a local used car dealer with literally no external damage on it.
He had it delivered to Houston. When he started it up, he heard a very bad rattle in the engine. A local Honda dealer told him $2500.00 minimum to repair it. My son just happened to be working the service counter that day and called me to see it I wanted it. Yes of course I wanted it.
My son pulled the engine for me and I pulled it apart. My son also ran the VIN thru Honda and discovered that the unit still had a year of factory Honda extended warranty on it.
The shaft that supports the forward - neutral - reverse gears (which is smaller than my little finger) had snapped. It had destroyed the main case plus the rear engine cover along with all of the parts in the shift mechanism..
Even though this Pioneer had no signs of ever having a trailer hitch ball mount or anything chained to the rear of the machine, Honda refused to warranty the damage claiming that the unit had been "used for pulling stumps". I later heard from a dealer that Honda had refused a lot of these claims saying the unit had been shifted from forward to reverse while still moving and that's what caused the damage.
I was abbe to buy the cases and nearly everything I needed in ebay to repair the engine with the exception of the shaft that broke and the rear engine cover that had to come from Honda. I also bought new pieces to replace the oil pump while I was in there.
I rebuilt the head , honed the cylinder and replace the rings and all seals. The engine had about 1300 hours on it as I remember before I got into it. It looked very nice inside. It still runs and shifts fine.
I have been looking at the fuel system all this time thinking that it was dumping fuel into the cylinder when the engine was turned off causing the engine to hydraulic. Pull the plug, spin the engine over, replace the plus and it starts instantly and runs fine.
I've been in the motorcycle business over 50 years now and I've never seen something of this poor design quality from Honda.
I spoke to a friends son the other day who is a tech for an east Texas ATV dealer who told me he had seen the spring in a 500 Honda sxs cam break and cause the same problem. I'm going to give the engine a good bath and pull the head shortly.

What can you tell me about these engines? Have you run into this same problem before?

Thanks
Sam

I don’t have or worked on a P700 but many posts on here about Honda OEM cams wearing out and needing to be replaced on these P700 engines.


Apparently you haven’t read the thread where every KRX motor melts down for no reason - lol.

 

[bigc]

why do you say its poor quality honda has been using this engine setup for 21 years many people have thousands of miles on them with no issues i have over 10k trouble free miles i take care of my machine like i said in other thread adjust valves or compression release issue

 

[Samsmc1]

Have you looked at the shaft that the forward - neutral - reverse gear rides on? It's a hollow shaft less that 1/2" in diameter. I'm told that they break constantly and I know for a fact that Honda will not warranty it. They didn't even send factory service rep to look at the machine and verify that it had not been used for "pulling stumps".
Further, I have replaced two solenoids and one ignition switch before the current problem arose.
Next thing I do not like on it is that it has a locked rear axle - not worth crap when you have a few hundred pounds in the bed - it's eating tires, especially on pavement.
I will grant you that it performs and handles well. It just hasn't been stone reliable like the 2019 Mule we have at our farm.

 

[Hello_Darkness]

Have you looked at the shaft that the forward - neutral - reverse gear rides on? It's a hollow shaft less that 1/2" in diameter. I'm told that they break constantly and I know for a fact that Honda will not warranty it. They didn't even send factory service rep to look at the machine and verify that it had not been used for "pulling stumps".
Further, I have replaced two solenoids and one ignition switch before the current problem arose.
Next thing I do not like on it is that it has a locked rear axle - not worth crap when you have a few hundred pounds in the bed - it's eating tires, especially on pavement.
I will grant you that it performs and handles well. It just hasn't been stone reliable like the 2019 Mule we have at our farm.

In my 16 years of being a Honda Technician I've never seen one break.

As far as the tire thing goes, it was never designed to be operated on pavement. You purchased the wrong machine

 

[DG Rider]

Have you looked at the shaft that the forward - neutral - reverse gear rides on? It's a hollow shaft less that 1/2" in diameter. I'm told that they break constantly and I know for a fact that Honda will not warranty it. They didn't even send factory service rep to look at the machine and verify that it had not been used for "pulling stumps".
Further, I have replaced two solenoids and one ignition switch before the current problem arose.
Next thing I do not like on it is that it has a locked rear axle - not worth crap when you have a few hundred pounds in the bed - it's eating tires, especially on pavement.
I will grant you that it performs and handles well. It just hasn't been stone reliable like the 2019 Mule we have at our farm.

Can't say I've ever heard of the shaft breaking in the subtranny. The 700 really doesn't have the power to break too much, to be honest.

 

[Samsmc1]

Hello darkness - I was surprised to see the locked rear axle.
I had a good 2 years of service before the poopoo hit the fan 2 years ago.
I kept thinking that it was hydraulicing because I saw no compression release in the parts fish, not realizing it was built into the cam.

 

[Remington]

Hello darkness - I was surprised to see the locked rear axle.

Hit “reply” ☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻 to whom ur replying to or tag @Samsmc1 so they get a notice like you just did or @Hello_Darkness may never know u responded so u can get an answer back.😉

You didnt know u had a locked rear axel when u bought it?🤔

I had a good 2 years of service before the poopoo hit the fan 2 years ago.

Must explain the please!
And Pics Or It Didnt Happen FO SHO!!!!

 

[Jerryg]

I have seen compression release failures on Honda General Purpose Engines.

Although, they either had a Service Bulletin on the issue or the customer had a low idle issue and the the mechanism got worn and sloppy.