Talon Rugged Radio Mounting

[PaulF]

Lol, I'd like to try a few things out before going ghetto fabulous and start gluing kitchenware to the car. I could consider getting a much shorter cable and mounting to the front bumper though...

The farther away from the PCM you can get the antenna, the better. I think if you mount it on the front of the roll bar somewhere, it might be OK. You can use the long cable, just don't coil it up. For temporary, run it up one A pilar, back to the mid pipe, forward on the other side and to the antenna to take up the extra cable. If that works and that is where you decide to finally mount it, you can then shorten the cable.

FYI, you will never get as good of transmission with a 1/4 wave as you will with a 1/2. BUT, the 1/2 is twice as long as the 1/4 so there are compromises to be made.

 

[jamesh]

The farther away from the PCM you can get the antenna, the better. I think if you mount it on the front of the roll bar somewhere, it might be OK. You can use the long cable, just don't coil it up. For temporary, run it up one A pilar, back to the mid pipe, forward on the other side and to the antenna to take up the extra cable. If that works and that is where you decide to finally mount it, you can then shorten the cable.

FYI, you will never get as good of transmission with a 1/4 wave as you will with a 1/2. BUT, the 1/2 is twice as long as the 1/4 so there are compromises to be made.

I was inside my garage with the garage door open, positioned directly above the car. So that is the first thing I will check - move outside and recheck. From there I will remove the antenna ground and the radio chassis ground, one at a time, and then both, since I was not getting this problem with the antenna sitting in the mag mount in the bed of the machine for testing while I waited for the bar clamp mount to arrive. Of course, I was also outside in my driveway at that time as well. Then I will experiment with different antenna locations. It is currently on the rear pillar, about a foot from the back end of the machine (somewhat close to the engine I suppose...). Then I will check with power connected to an external battery as suggested by Anna at RR. She was not super into the idea of replacing the antenna right away, but she did indicate the 1/2 wave antenna may reduce the symptoms if not correct them. It wouldn't get here in time for my ride tomorrow anyways, so I will do this trouble shooting here and then order the 1/2 wave antenna next week if my problems still aren't resolved. I think the taller 1/2 wave antenna would be okay where the antenna is currently mounted, about 2 ft below the roof level - but not under the roof.

I'm really hoping it's just because I was inside. This is all new to me.

 

[PaulF]

I was inside my garage.

I stopped reading after this. All the testing you have done is pointless. Move the machine outside and start over.

 

[HondaRed16]

Lol, I'd like to try a few things out before going ghetto fabulous and start gluing kitchenware to the car. I could consider getting a much shorter cable and mounting to the front bumper though...

I do understand what you're saying about going ghetto

LOL, sorry I didn't explain.
The pie pan (absent of a metal roof) should be there anyway for optimum performance.
Even though they sell these magnetic no ground antennas it robs the signal.
If you're going to mount to the frame which is what most people do it is a moot point.

I myself have a flat piece pie pan (grounded) with a magnetic mount that gives me the best the radio/antenna can deliver.
Rather than destroy or rip an antenna off it just gets knocked over and then set back up.

Coax has to be in 3' increments to work which is why you end up with extra to deal with you can't just cut it to perfect size.

Anyway...this doesn't have to be perfect science unless your'e and old radio head that desires perfection, but it will all sure make a difference on operation when all are scratching their head wondering why one radio setup out performs all the others when they have what they think is the same setup/install. Radios are why more complicated than most people realize and the vendors don't spend a lot of time explaining, most of them are not that schooled either unless they are a professional radio shop. Without naming brand or companies the one that most people here buy from I don't consider as such (my opinion though).

If you're not trying to talk for miles away and just communicate with the group you are with almost anything works...including a hand held

 

[HondaRed16]

I stopped reading after this. All the testing you have done is pointless. Move the machine outside and start over.

This!

 

[jamesh]

Yeah, yeah, I'm moving it outside first, lol, then the other testing to follow if needed. I am a total newb with this stuff....I just hope that moving outside fixes it. But knowing my luck, its worth having a game plan for if it doesn't..

I still might consider getting the 1/2 wave antenna. But first things first right?!

All input and advice is MUCH appreciated! I'm definitely outside my knowledge base. I almost didn't get the equipment for fear of this stuff happening, but it's interesting enough that I'm not regretting it yet.

 

[bjniceguy]

not sure if correct, but when I bought my dual band radio and intercom from Rugged for YXZ, they told me the 1/2 wave (long one) was for VHF and the short one was for UHF. I bought complete NON-ground plane setup from them.

 

[russknight]

Unistrut is your friend when mounting things.

 

[jamesh]

I think it's fixed. I ran the antenna cable over to the passenger side. Under the hood it no longer passes across the factory harnesses. Lo and behold, Honda already has an antenna mount on the back pillar which is in the perfect location for the length and route I used.for the cable. Will probably get to test for communication with other cars tomorrow. But key up is good with very little feedback and no engine kill.

 

[HondaRed16]

I think it's fixed. I ran the antenna cable over to the passenger side. Under the hood it no longer passes across the factory harnesses. Lo and behold, Honda already has an antenna mount on the back pillar which is in the perfect location for the length and route I used.for the cable. Will probably get to test for communication with other cars tomorrow. But key up is good with very little feedback and no engine kill.

Good deal

If you have the antenna I think you have, the SWR should be pre-tuned, you shouldn’t have to do anything else. Enjoy.

Post some pictures when you can please, I’m not aware of the factory mount.
Let us know how it performs.

 

[PaulF]

not sure if correct, but when I bought my dual band radio and intercom from Rugged for YXZ, they told me the 1/2 wave (long one) was for VHF and the short one was for UHF. I bought complete NON-ground plane setup from them.

Rugged mobile units are no longer dual band, they are either 60 watt VHF or 45 watt UHF.

A 1/2 wave UHF antenna by nature is going to be less than half the size of a 1/2 wave VHF. A dual band radio/antenna is trying to make things work on different wave patterns. Not really a fan myself and that could be the reason they went away from dual band radios.

That said, there are multiple antenna options out there. RR sells a 1/4 wave NGP but as far as I can figure out, that is theoretically impossible (but what do I know). Their antennas are made by Laird and they do not sell a 1/4 wave NGP antenna and the 1/4 wave they sell that look identical to the RR antenna and Laird does not market it as a NGP antenna.

The RR Rep that I emailed with said the 1/2 wave he is sending me is a "Better Antenna" than the one packaged in the kits. It is beyond me why they send a wide band antenna with a VHF radio, it is just not the best antenna. I think their research shows people don't want the longer 1/2 wave antennas so they just box up the shorter 1/4 wave units. Could also be that they happen to fit in the box and the 29" 1/2 wave doesn't. Who knows.

 

[PaulF]

@PaulF did you get the antennas and see of the work yet? There is another guy on FB that has tried different antennas with no luck.

I received the antennas from RR this morning...
VHF 1/2 Wave Antenna (VHF 144-174Mhz) VHF 1/2 Wave Antenna (144-174Mhz) [VHF-1/2W-SPR] - $48.00 : Rugged Radios: Headsets, Intercoms, 2-Way Racing Radios and Communication for UTV, Motorcycles, Offroad, Circle Track, Aviation, Racing, NASCAR, Police, and more...

Installed and ALL interference is gone. What a difference, quiet as can be. Even inside a closed garage!

This antenna is tunable and a bit too long for the 150 to 160 mhz range that these radios are in. As soon as I get an SWR meter, I will see how well it tunes,

 

[jamesh]

So on my ride today, I could hear everyone fine, but they could not hear me well. Tried driver and codriver jacks, different headsets and even the hand mic. Tried various VOX and volume adjustments. No luck other than a weak transmission. (quiet) with a lot of feedback. Since it occurs with the hand mic, I assume it is radio and not intercom issues. I could hear everyone fine. My group thinks I need to warranty exchange the radio. Could it be an antenna issue?

 

[PaulF]

So on my ride today, I could hear everyone fine, but they could not hear me well. Tried driver and codriver jacks, different headsets and even the hand mic. Tried various VOX and volume adjustments. No luck other than a weak transmission. (quiet) with a lot of feedback. Since it occurs with the hand mic, I assume it is radio and not intercom issues. I could hear everyone fine. My group thinks I need to warranty exchange the radio. Could it be an antenna issue?

The antenna is everything when it comes to high power radios. Too many variables involved to there is no "one size fits all". It has to be right or it just won't work. This is my experience...

1/4 wave antenna provided with the kit is s*** (at least when it comes to the Talon). I had nothing but feedback, PCM interference, engine kill and poor transmission (reception seemed ok). I was really worried and having second thought about RR at that point.

1/2 wave is quiet as a mouse, great reception, no PCM interference, no engine kill and most of all, transmission is perfect and strong. My wife could not believe the difference and was amazed it was all from changing the antenna. I literally unscrewed the 1/4 and screwed on the 1/2, no tuning or anything (even though I believe the 1/2 wave is about an inch too long and needs to be tuned).

My testing was limited to around home with another handheld but what I experienced between the 1/4 and 1/2 wave is night and day. Basically, the 1/4 would not work and I experienced issues similar to yours no matter what i tried. The 1/2 wave worked out of the package.

If you haven't got a 1/2 wave on the way yet, try to contact Joe Zeidler at RR, he is the sales manager and the person that helped me.

 

[jamesh]

The antenna is everything when it comes to high power radios. Too many variables involved to there is no "one size fits all". It has to be right or it just won't work. This is my experience...

1/4 wave antenna provided with the kit is s*** (at least when it comes to the Talon). I had nothing but feedback, PCM interference, engine kill and poor transmission (reception seemed ok). I was really worried and having second thought about RR at that point.

1/2 wave is quiet as a mouse, great reception, no PCM interference, no engine kill and most of all, transmission is perfect and strong. My wife could not believe the difference and was amazed it was all from changing the antenna. I literally unscrewed the 1/4 and screwed on the 1/2, no tuning or anything (even though I believe the 1/2 wave is about an inch too long and needs to be tuned).

My testing was limited to around home with another handheld but what I experienced between the 1/4 and 1/2 wave is night and day. Basically, the 1/4 would not work and I experienced issues similar to yours no matter what i tried. The 1/2 wave worked out of the package.

If you haven't got a 1/2 wave on the way yet, try to contact Joe Zeidler at RR, he is the sales manager and the person that helped me.

I'd like to try swapping antennas rather than uninstalling and.sending the unit in. I just ordered a Baofeng handheld so I can test transmission strength alone.

 

[bjniceguy]

mine has head set with Blue quick release jacks. If I don't get the plug in just right, I can hear them, but they cant hear me. Might double check all plus

 

[Ezgoin]

So

So on my ride today, I could hear everyone fine, but they could not hear me well. Tried driver and codriver jacks, different headsets and even the hand mic. Tried various VOX and volume adjustments. No luck other than a weak transmission. (quiet) with a lot of feedback. Since it occurs with the hand mic, I assume it is radio and not intercom issues. I could hear everyone fine. My group thinks I need to warranty exchange the radio. Could it be an antenna issue?

I had the same issues your having. Started with the 1/4 wave mounted on a RR roll bar mount behind the passenger seat that killed the engine when pressing the PTT buttons. Solved that issue with the 1/2 wave antenna, but had the poor transmission quality. Installed a ground from the antenna to the roll bar and got great transmit and receive quality. BTW, I’m not using a ground off the radio/intercom chassis, just the ground from the antenna mount to the empty threaded bung on the roll bar behind the passenger seat. Between the 1/2 wave and the ground my problems went away.

BTW, after weeks of chasing the engine interference issue, the RR tech told me the reason they use the 1/4 wave antenna in the kits is because it fits in the box!

just an FYI, I installed my head set plugs in the rear cowl behind the seats. This works great and looks good, however puts the driver side plug into the top of the rear wheel well. It’s up out of the way, but I felt still susceptible to catching a rock or stick, so I fabbed up a cover using a plastic light switch box. See pics.

 

[jamesh]

Shoot, I called RR again to discuss the transmit issue. Asked about the half wave antenna again. They advised me to ground the antenna but did not encourage the idea of a half wave antenna...again. First time it was Anna who didn't really care about the half wave antenna, this time it was Shane.

So, now I'm going to try grounding the antenna. I also bought a Hesenate handheld to do independent testing. Hesenate is an even cheaper clone of the Baofeng that RR uses. I think its actually made by Baofeng. Might consist of radios that didn't pass QC testing but are still serviceable.

Anyway, Wouldn't it be just as good of a ground if I scrape the paint off the mounting point on the cage as compared to using the ground strap?

Also, I kind of want to get the half wave anyways, since it seems like it is the better fit for the 60 watt VHF radio, regardless if the quarter wave is serviceable.

 

[Ezgoin]

Shoot, I called RR again to discuss the transmit issue. Asked about the half wave antenna again. They advised me to ground the antenna but did not encourage the idea of a half wave antenna...again. First time it was Anna who didn't really care about the half wave antenna, this time it was Shane.

So, now I'm going to try grounding the antenna. I also bought a Hesenate handheld to do independent testing. Hesenate is an even cheaper clone of the Baofeng that RR uses. I think its actually made by Baofeng. Might consist of radios that didn't pass QC testing but are still serviceable.

Anyway, Wouldn't it be just as good of a ground if I scrape the paint off the mounting point on the cage as compared to using the ground strap?

Also, I kind of want to get the half wave anyways, since it seems like it is the better fit for the 60 watt VHF radio, regardless if the quarter wave is serviceable.

I ran a very short ground cable from the antenna mount ( on the vertical roll bar behind the passenger’s seat head rest area) to the unused threadalet about 6” away on the outside of the vertical roll bar. That way I didn’t have to scrape paint and worry about rust. Seems to work good and both transmit and receive are good!
Since the 1/2 wave antenna is so much longer, this mounting location allows me to bend the antenna over and hook it under the rear lip of the roof when pulling in and out of the toy hauler etc. works out well.

 

[jamesh]

Grounding the antenna did not help. Will be sending the radio in to Rugged for warranty service. This has become involved to the point I was afraid of and it's irritating. I will be stronger for it in the end...begrudgingly. Now I have a Baofeng Clone (Hesenate) and learned how to program it. I have three college degrees - I am tired of learning.