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If I wasn’t then how would I know things were to spec?
I do reference the manual for everything but sometimes I fail at reading comprehension. Plus, I’m just a hobby wrencher. I learn as I go and from the help from you nice folks. And you may be right in the end, Jerry. I’m going to be looking at the fuel delivery system again.
I set the timing to pic B and set my valve clearances to spec. Hand crank felt good so bolted her up. Compression was actually higher now at around 100psi. Double-checked/adjusted valve clearances and took another reading. Back down to 90psi. Put the plug in and still have a hard start condition. Give it 1/4 throttle while cranking and it will fire up. Idle still good.
You may want to check your fuel for too much alcohol as well. That can cause these type of issues.If I wasn’t then how would I know things were to spec?
And you may be right in the end, Jerry. I’m going to be looking at the fuel delivery system again.
I set the timing to pic B and set my valve clearances to spec. Hand crank felt good so bolted her up. Compression was actually higher now at around 100psi. Double-checked/adjusted valve clearances and took another reading. Back down to 90psi. Put the plug in and still have a hard start condition. Give it 1/4 throttle while cranking and it will fire up. Idle still good.
please explain technically how that can cause a high torque when cold - I’m interested
long shot here - any chance there is fuel somehow sneaking into the cylinder after sitting all night ?If I wasn’t then how would I know things were to spec?
And you may be right in the end, Jerry. I’m going to be looking at the fuel delivery system again.
I set the timing to pic B and set my valve clearances to spec. Hand crank felt good so bolted her up. Compression was actually higher now at around 100psi. Double-checked/adjusted valve clearances and took another reading. Back down to 90psi. Put the plug in and still have a hard start condition. Give it 1/4 throttle while cranking and it will fire up. Idle still good.
when cold the OP is stating hard to spin over and grinding the teeth off the starter and does a NASCAR101 changing a starter every couple of days - trying to learn how fuel quality is affecting that
It doesn't, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a couple thing going on.
It's starting to sound to me like he ordered the wrong cam.
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Interesting thought on the wrong cam, Jerry. With me not being able to 100% line up all 3 indexing lines on the cam gear with the cylinder head and holder at TDC, that has merit. When I order parts, I use Partzilla to get the Honda number and then I do my shopping with that. For the OEM parts, I order directly from them. In the case of the cam, though, I did go with an aftermarket Caltric one so it's highly possible that it's either the wrong one or manufactured out of spec somewhere.
Let me clarify the condition. We might be barking up the wrong tree. The engine is NOT hard to spin over. It spins at what I consider to be a normal starting RPM. It will crank all day long (if I pull the plug wire off of the plug). While cranking, it's just hard to fire. If I don't give it any throttle, it will sputter and pop like it wants to fire up, but won't actually fire. During that long crank and sputtering, if it catches and I don't get off the key then the starter grinds, eventually eating the teeth off. If I give it about 1/4 throttle while cranking, it will fire after a second or two.
It really seems like it's not getting enough fuel to fire. But once it does fire, it acts like it gets plenty of fuel. I can run at any throttle position without any hesitation. Never feels like it's starved for fuel while running (though the white plug tip says otherwise).
For the record, I HAVE had the condition where the starter cannot actually turn the engine over past the compression stroke. I can't remember if that was fixed by properly setting the valve clearances or if that is when I replaced the cam. Either way, that was BEFORE the bigger overhaul and is NOT the condition I'm seeing now.
Let me clarify the condition. We might be barking up the wrong tree. The engine is NOT hard to spin over. It spins at what I consider to be a normal starting RPM. It will crank all day long (if I pull the plug wire off of the plug). While cranking, it's just hard to fire. If I don't give it any throttle, it will sputter and pop like it wants to fire up, but won't actually fire. During that long crank and sputtering, if it catches and I don't get off the key then the starter grinds, eventually eating the teeth off. If I give it about 1/4 throttle while cranking, it will fire after a second or two.
It really seems like it's not getting enough fuel to fire. But once it does fire, it acts like it gets plenty of fuel. I can run at any throttle position without any hesitation. Never feels like it's starved for fuel while running (though the white plug tip says otherwise).
For the record, I HAVE had the condition where the starter cannot actually turn the engine over past the compression stroke. I can't remember if that was fixed by properly setting the valve clearances or if that is when I replaced the cam. Either way, that was BEFORE the bigger overhaul and is NOT the condition I'm seeing now.
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Yep, same machine, but slightly different conditions. Back then, the starter couldn't turn it past the compression stroke. I could get one rotation and then it would stop. I could SOMETIMES get it to fire with giving it some throttle, but it was MUCH harder than it is now and came with a lot of backfiring. I had to hold my tongue just right, wait for certain stars to align, and toss up a prayer before cranking to get it to fire. Tightening the exhaust valve clearance resolved that issue. That issue back then was on the same camshaft that is in it currently.
In the time between then and now, I had a coolant leak and the kids didn't know about it. Ultimately overheated and seized the rings after they used it for a weekend. Machine still fired right up at that point, though. I put on a new jug and piston/rings. After bolting back up, I immediately had the new hard-start condition. Nothing else had changed so that's why I initially pointed at timing and/or valve clearances. Unless it's just a coincidence, it almost certainly points at something I did when I fixed it after the overheating issue.
I know you guys must be frustrated with me. I apologize. I did call some Honda shops and the only one within 100 miles of me that is willing to look at it is about 9 weeks out on being able to look at it. They did say it sounds like either timing or valves but of course they would need to look at it. I went ahead and had them put me on the books and they'll call me when they're ready for it. Until then, I'll keep tinkering. I'll pull the cam yet again and mic it again to make absolutely sure it's within spec. I'll put my valve clearances on the tighter side of the spec and see if maybe my machine needs to be tighter. If I still can't get any resolution then I'll let the pro's figure it out.
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I would think that you use the parts catalog with the model and frame number not by the engine model. But make sure you have the serial number on the block in case there was a change.
I just use the part breakdown on the OEM Ayer’s/partzilla/etc….sites . and order up - I see when the part number is changed/updated - tbh - just got done a rebuild on a 30 year old Honda bike and ordered a fair amount of odd OEM stuff and all was correct - good job Honda OEM parts🤟.
From my experience, programs like the ones on Partzilla are translated from the actual Honda parts breakdowns. Mistakes can and do happen.
Buggyman
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Well Jerry, ultimately you were correct on this one!
I broke it down again and really scrutinized the timing and valve clearances. I set, reset, and set again. I got the same results every time. I am almost 100% confident that it is timed and lashed correctly.
In the meantime, I went ahead and purchased a new injector and started checking the fuel system. All of the tests per the manual were successful. The fuel flow test gave me about 10 oz of fuel in 10 seconds (manual says 2.9 oz minimum) so I wasn't sure if it was a bad thing to be that much higher than the minimum.
Examining the fuel from the flow test, it didn't look as "clean" as fresh gas typically does, but it didn't look blatantly bad either. Yellow-greenish tint, slightly cloudy. I went ahead and pumped out as much of the fuel as possible and replaced it with fresh fuel from today. Ran the flow test again and examined the output. It still had a slight color tint to it, but was almost crystal clear. Decided to go with it. Put the new injector in and turned the key. Fired up almost immediately. Over the course of a few hours, I randomly cranked it up. "Cold" engine, warm engine, doesn't matter: Fires right up now!
The issue most likely was degraded fuel. Even though I put fresh fuel in it in the recent past, it's possible there was still enough of the "bad" gas in the tank to give it troubles since I never completely emptied the tank. It's possible the injector was the culprit, but I didn't bother testing it since the part was cheap enough.
Another problem solved. Thanks for the help everyone!
