P1000 Speed Sensor trouble, will not shift

[Neohio]

The voltmeter display shows 14.1 to 14.3 volts, even during the problem.

How is your voltmeter wired into your machine? Direct to battery? Using a tap on acc wire?
@HondaTech theory may still be in play depending on how you have stuff wired.

 

[HondaTech]

How is your voltmeter wired into your machine? Direct to battery? Using a tap on acc wire?
@HondaTech theory may still be in play depending on how you have stuff wired.

I figure he's referring to the Honda switch panel mounted Voltmeter. If that's the case i'm not sure where voltage comes from since the fuse box for that switch panel has a wire hooked to accessory power and a wire hooked directly to battery voltage.

Voltage from either would only indicate that the battery voltage or the accessory power is there. I would be interested in what voltage the ECM is seeing.

 

[MMW]

How is your voltmeter wired into your machine? Direct to battery? Using a tap on acc wire?
@HondaTech theory may still be in play depending on how you have stuff wired.

Honda Tech is correct, it is the stock switch plate mounted factory voltmeter

 

[MMW]

I wanted to up date this once more. I have taken the critter out for two test rides since the last up-date, the first was Sunday and the second was Tuesday.
Sunday's test ride: Outside temps mid 50's and clear. Riding on gravel roads, all of it under 15 mph, most of it under 9 mph.
1 hour 10 minutes into the ride the speedometer stopped reading anything except zero, the power steering warning light didn't come on.
I let the machine sit for 3 minutes and restarted it and once again everything was working properly.
I turned the machine off for 7 minutes and restarted to see if there would be any problems, everything worked properly.
I rode for another 40 minutes and the speedometer quit working and the machine would not shift to any forward gear except first.
I rode another 20 minutes and the power steering warning light never came on.

Tuesday's test ride: Outside temps 40 degrees and cloudy and occasionally misty. Took the same roads and speeds as Sunday's test ride.
1 hour and 40 minutes into the ride the speedometer started to only read zero.
I turned the machine off and waited about 10 seconds and did a quick restart (Turned the key straight from off to start) the speedometer would only read zero.
I let the machine sit off for 3 minutes then restarted and everything worked properly.
I rode for another 2 hours and everything worked fine.
The power steering warning light never came on.

I didn't turn the machine off during either test ride except as described.

I have been doing a little research on the Arkansas Lemon Law https://static.ark.org/eeuploads/gyba/Consumer_Guide_to_the_Lemon_Law_2015.pdf

I really don't want to have to take that route but it has been 3 1/2 months shop time, warranty days used up while in the shop, all of gun deer season missed.
I do want to be informed a to what my options are. As I read it I am covered.

I will take it for another test ride tomorrow and then take it back to the dealership Friday.

 

[0860silverado]

I wanted to up date this once more. I have taken the critter out for two test rides since the last up-date, the first was Sunday and the second was Tuesday.
Sunday's test ride: Outside temps mid 50's and clear. Riding on gravel roads, all of it under 15 mph, most of it under 9 mph.
1 hour 10 minutes into the ride the speedometer stopped reading anything except zero, the power steering warning light didn't come on.
I let the machine sit for 3 minutes and restarted it and once again everything was working properly.
I turned the machine off for 7 minutes and restarted to see if there would be any problems, everything worked properly.
I rode for another 40 minutes and the speedometer quit working and the machine would not shift to any forward gear except first.
I rode another 20 minutes and the power steering warning light never came on.

Tuesday's test ride: Outside temps 40 degrees and cloudy and occasionally misty. Took the same roads and speeds as Sunday's test ride.
1 hour and 40 minutes into the ride the speedometer started to only read zero.
I turned the machine off and waited about 10 seconds and did a quick restart (Turned the key straight from off to start) the speedometer would only read zero.
I let the machine sit off for 3 minutes then restarted and everything worked properly.
I rode for another 2 hours and everything worked fine.
The power steering warning light never came on.

I didn't turn the machine off during either test ride except as described.

I have been doing a little research on the Arkansas Lemon Law https://static.ark.org/eeuploads/gyba/Consumer_Guide_to_the_Lemon_Law_2015.pdf

I really don't want to have to take that route but it has been 3 1/2 months shop time, warranty days used up while in the shop, all of gun deer season missed.
I do want to be informed a to what my options are. As I read it I am covered.

I will take it for another test ride tomorrow and then take it back to the dealership Friday.

Damn...That sux. You have me a little concerned about mine because that's the identical set of problems I had with mine a couple months ago. All I did was check/tighten my ground wires and kind of wiggle them a little. No obvious problem was found but the problems never showed again. Keep us posted pls. Good luck!

 

[MMW]

Not to discredit your dealership or it's techs but all Honda ATVs and SXSs have an electrical plug connecting the meter to the wiring harness. Now some are plugged directly into the back of the meter and some have a pigtail.

But back to your issue at hand. My old DSM told me when checking grounds that sometimes the bolt will feel tight but actually will be not tight enough or have something in the threads that wont allow it to clamp all the way. I'd suggest removing all the ground bolts, clean the threads and then retighten.

Also when they have the unit and can get the symptoms to appear, try hooking the MCS up and see if all the computers are reading ok. I've had a 3 seater that shifted really hard and when attached to the MCS, the Power Steering ECM was the only computer I could read. Turns out I had a bad ground and the Power Steering ECM had its own path to ground, while the F.I ECM relied on the ground bolted to the front of the engine.

May also have them check battery voltage and charging system output, maybe your loosing power somewhere or dropping voltage for whatever reason. I had a 5 seat LE with and an unplugged regulator that would only cause the I-4wd to act up, figure that 1 out after the customer mentioned he had to keep charging the battery.

issues like this can drive you crazy, just when you think it's whipped it pops up again.

Honda Tech "DSM". I don't know what that is.
I am going to take another test ride tomorrow if the rain lets up and then take the machine back to the dealership Friday. I will ask the tech to review this thread. He reads this site. He may want to pm you and see if something might help.

 

[Smitty335]

Dan

I wanted to up date this once more. I have taken the critter out for two test rides since the last up-date, the first was Sunday and the second was Tuesday.
Sunday's test ride: Outside temps mid 50's and clear. Riding on gravel roads, all of it under 15 mph, most of it under 9 mph.
1 hour 10 minutes into the ride the speedometer stopped reading anything except zero, the power steering warning light didn't come on.
I let the machine sit for 3 minutes and restarted it and once again everything was working properly.
I turned the machine off for 7 minutes and restarted to see if there would be any problems, everything worked properly.
I rode for another 40 minutes and the speedometer quit working and the machine would not shift to any forward gear except first.
I rode another 20 minutes and the power steering warning light never came on.

Tuesday's test ride: Outside temps 40 degrees and cloudy and occasionally misty. Took the same roads and speeds as Sunday's test ride.
1 hour and 40 minutes into the ride the speedometer started to only read zero.
I turned the machine off and waited about 10 seconds and did a quick restart (Turned the key straight from off to start) the speedometer would only read zero.
I let the machine sit off for 3 minutes then restarted and everything worked properly.
I rode for another 2 hours and everything worked fine.
The power steering warning light never came on.

I didn't turn the machine off during either test ride except as described.

I have been doing a little research on the Arkansas Lemon Law https://static.ark.org/eeuploads/gyba/Consumer_Guide_to_the_Lemon_Law_2015.pdf

I really don't want to have to take that route but it has been 3 1/2 months shop time, warranty days used up while in the shop, all of gun deer season missed.
I do want to be informed a to what my options are. As I read it I am covered.

I will take it for another test ride tomorrow and then take it back to the dealership Friday.

Dang thats tough! I think Honda Tec is on to something though, grounds. I have a 1951 Ford 8N with a positive ground, ever since I've had it, it's been temperamental about starting. About 3 weeks ago it went crazy, was headed to the house to get my gun and shoot it! HA! When I realized all the voltage readings I had taken out the ground possibility, so some emery cloth and dielectric grease and the sucker started on the first turn over????

 

[MMW]

Damn...That sux. You have me a little concerned about mine because that's the identical set of problems I had with mine a couple months ago. All I did was check/tighten my ground wires and kind of wiggle them a little. No obvious problem was found but the problems never showed again. Keep us posted pls. Good luck!

I was thinking about it today. I am suspicious the problem has been present since day one. All the rides I had taken before finding the problem consisted of short rides and then turning the machine off for a bit. The squirrel dogs always think the machine should not leave the yard with out them in the lead. There is a culvert not 40 minutes away that I always stop at to let them get a drink. I always turned the machine off and let them check the area for squirrels.
The first time I saw that there was a problem was the day I took a different route that did not involve turning the machine off for at least 2 hour ride. The problem showed up for the first time on that ride.

If you have never ridden your machine for at least 2 1/5 hours with out ever shutting it off, then you might have the same problem and never know it.

 

[MMW]

Dan

Dang thats tough! I think Honda Tec is on to something though, grounds. I have a 1951 Ford 8N with a positive ground, ever since I've had it, it's been temperamental about starting. About 3 weeks ago it went crazy, was headed to the house to get my gun and shoot it! HA! When I realized all the voltage readings I had taken out the ground possibility, so some emery cloth and dielectric grease and the sucker started on the first turn over????

Smitty, if I may ask a favor. Look at the lemon law link I posted and see what you think. The first time I took it in for the problem it was still under warranty, the work they are currently doing is covered under the warranty. They had had it in for the same problem that they have not resolved 3 times so far. The first time they had it just shy of 2 months. This last time was almost 6 weeks.

 

[HondaTech]

Honda Tech "DSM". I don't know what that is.
I am going to take another test ride tomorrow if the rain lets up and then take the machine back to the dealership Friday. I will ask the tech to review this thread. He reads this site. He may want to pm you and see if something might help.

DSM is short for District Service Manager, their the guys who run around to different dealers in their district to check on odd issues or warranty problems. They also check to make sure we're doing everything correctly and have our stuff in order.

I know several of my customers have driven their Pioneers for over 2 hours and never shut it off. My GM for sure has.

Since it seems to take a while to happen I'm beginning to think maybe something is getting hot and failing. Maybe a bad stator or regulator, if you get the machine to do this again, look under the drivers side of the seat and feel the regualtor for temperature. BE CAREFUL since it can be super hot if its going bad or malfunctioning. Being a little warm is ok, but you should be able to keep your hand on it and not burn yourself.

Edit: After rereading your post about the speedo seemingly just loosing its signal. Id warrant going back to that sensor again and looking to make sure the connector isnt damage.

I know you said the tech replaced the connector, and I'm not 100% familiar off the top of my head what it looks like atm, but unless he replaced the harness or cut and spliced another connector in then I dont think he could have replaced the connector. Honda does off certain connectors to help ease the replacement of damaged ones. But I'm not sure that particular connector would be available. If that is the case that he spliced a new 1 in, I wonder if maybe his soldering job is adequate? Just throwing out ideas.

 

[MMW]

DSM is short for District Service Manager, their the guys who run around to different dealers in their district to check on odd issues or warranty problems. They also check to make sure we're doing everything correctly and have our stuff in order.

I know several of my customers have driven their Pioneers for over 2 hours and never shut it off. My GM for sure has.

Since it seems to take a while to happen I'm beginning to think maybe something is getting hot and failing. Maybe a bad stator or regulator, if you get the machine to do this again, look under the drivers side of the seat and feel the regualtor for temperature. BE CAREFUL since it can be super hot if its going bad or malfunctioning. Being a little warm is ok, but you should be able to keep your hand on it and not burn yourself.

I have thought about temp issues, and that may be just what it is. However I keep thinking a 3 minute shut down will not let anything to cool off enough to go for another 2 hours without the problem showing back up.
My mind keep going to some timer or bit in the controls resetting.

Honda Tech would you have a problem if the tech guy were to pm you asking opinions and advice? I hate to impose but I am a firm believer that most time the more minds the better.

 

[Smitty335]

Smitty, if I may ask a favor. Look at the lemon law link I posted and see what you think. The first time I took it in for the problem it was still under warranty, the work they are currently doing is covered under the warranty. They had had it in for the same problem that they have not resolved 3 times so far. The first time they had it just shy of 2 months. This last time was almost 6 weeks.

Page 4 paragraph 4 Under Important. It doesn't cover motorcycles. I don't know if a S X S is considered a motor cycle. I would call them. I bet there classified as a motor cycle, I hope I'm wrong! The ground on my tractor looked and felt tight, then after it warmed up/hot, would start having convulsions. I would really try sanding all the grounding points down to bare metal and use dielectric grease.

 

[MMW]

DSM is short for District Service Manager, their the guys who run around to different dealers in their district to check on odd issues or warranty problems. They also check to make sure we're doing everything correctly and have our stuff in order.

I know several of my customers have driven their Pioneers for over 2 hours and never shut it off. My GM for sure has.

Since it seems to take a while to happen I'm beginning to think maybe something is getting hot and failing. Maybe a bad stator or regulator, if you get the machine to do this again, look under the drivers side of the seat and feel the regualtor for temperature. BE CAREFUL since it can be super hot if its going bad or malfunctioning. Being a little warm is ok, but you should be able to keep your hand on it and not burn yourself.

Edit: After rereading your post about the speedo seemingly just loosing its signal. Id warrant going back to that sensor again and looking to make sure the connector isnt damage.

I know you said the tech replaced the connector, and I'm not 100% familiar off the top of my head what it looks like atm, but unless he replaced the harness or cut and spliced another connector in then I dont think he could have replaced the connector. Honda does off certain connectors to help ease the replacement of damaged ones. But I'm not sure that particular connector would be available. If that is the case that he spliced a new 1 in, I wonder if maybe his soldering job is adequate? Just throwing out ideas.

Honda Tech one piece of information that may be important. When I bought the critter I had a factory heater installed. The heat exchanger (heater core) is located in the compartment under the drivers seat.

 

[MMW]

Page 4 paragraph 4 Under Important. It doesn't cover motorcycles. I don't know if a S X S is considered a motor cycle. I would call them. I bet there classified as a motor cycle, I hope I'm wrong! The ground on my tractor looked and felt tight, then after it warmed up/hot, would start having convulsions. I would really try sanding all the grounding points down to bare metal and use dielectric grease.

I thought about the motorcycle classification as well. I am keeping my fingers and toes crossed that it is covered, I have exhausted my google searches and I can't find an answer

 

[Smitty335]

I thought about the motorcycle classification as well. I am keeping my fingers and toes crossed that it is covered

I do my best thinking then I'm asleep or peeing, I'm not going to tell which one I was doing when I remembered the Car Wash days, I was in charge of maintenance of 13 car washes, all of the controls were 12 V DC. The Molex connections could look clean, yet issues would remain intermittently. Then I started using contact cleaner and dielectric grease. Issues went away.

 

[HondaTech]

T

I thought about the motorcycle classification as well. I am keeping my fingers and toes crossed that it is covered, I have exhausted my google searches and I can't find an answer

My dealership had a Lemon Law filed on a motorcycle before I worked for them, we're in Ohio though.

I've been digging through the wiring diagram and the vehicle speed sensor uses a ground that junctions to a ground wire that has 3 leads coming from it. This is also the same junction that the PS ECM gets its ground from as well. I believe this group of ground wires is the one under the drivers seat that can only be accessed by removing the plastic panel under the lower front seat and part of the floor. Most guys don't thoroughly inspect that 1 due to it being sort of difficult to access.

Other than this and the fact that a lack of speed signal could trigger a PS light would be the only 2 things to link the two issues happening at the same time together. The 2 pink wires go directly from the the speed sensor to the display and the PS ECM. Then there is 1 black/red wire that goes directly to the ECM and the other 2 speed sensors.

Can you clarify which speed sensor he did repair/replace? There are actually 3 on the machine and only 1 actually transmit speed to the display for speedometer readout. The other 2 are just for monitoring the front output shaft and CV shaft speed difference.

 

[HondaTech]

Unless I'm mistaken he found 1 on the front diff that was damaged, correct?

 

[Smitty335]

T

My dealership had a Lemon Law filed on a motorcycle before I worked for them, we're in Ohio though.

I've been digging through the wiring diagram and the vehicle speed sensor uses a ground that junctions to a ground wire that has 3 leads coming from it. This is also the same junction that the PS ECM gets its ground from as well. I believe this group of ground wires is the one under the drivers seat that can only be accessed by removing the plastic panel under the lower front seat and part of the floor. Most guys don't thoroughly inspect that 1 due to it being sort of difficult to access.

Other than this and the fact that a lack of speed signal could trigger a PS light would be the only 2 things to link the two issues happening at the same time together. The 2 pink wires go directly from the the speed sensor to the display and the PS ECM. Then there is 1 black/red wire that goes directly to the ECM and the other 2 speed sensors.

Can you clarify which speed sensor he di repair/replace? There are actually 3 on the machine and only 1 actually transmit speed to the display for speedometer readout. The other 2 are just for monitoring the front output shaft and CV shaft speed difference.

Thanks, you have to be grounded in all aspects of life, HA!

 

[MMW]

T

My dealership had a Lemon Law filed on a motorcycle before I worked for them, we're in Ohio though.

I've been digging through the wiring diagram and the vehicle speed sensor uses a ground that junctions to a ground wire that has 3 leads coming from it. This is also the same junction that the PS ECM gets its ground from as well. I believe this group of ground wires is the one under the drivers seat that can only be accessed by removing the plastic panel under the lower front seat and part of the floor. Most guys don't thoroughly inspect that 1 due to it being sort of difficult to access.

Other than this and the fact that a lack of speed signal could trigger a PS light would be the only 2 things to link the two issues happening at the same time together. The 2 pink wires go directly from the the speed sensor to the display and the PS ECM. Then there is 1 black/red wire that goes directly to the ECM and the other 2 speed sensors.

Can you clarify which speed sensor he did repair/replace? There are actually 3 on the machine and only 1 actually transmit speed to the display for speedometer readout. The other 2 are just for monitoring the front output shaft and CV shaft speed difference.

He replaced the front sensor first and then later replaced all of them

 

[MMW]

I want to up-date this, I have taken the critter out for several test rides since the last up-date:
Weather cloudy and misty, 50*
After 1 hr 10 min. into the ride the speedometer quit reading anything other than 0
No power steering warning light, engine braking working
3 minute shut down and a normal restart, all is okay.
Turned it off for 7 minutes and restarted and everything is okay
rode another 40 minutes and speedometer only reads 0. No power steering warning, engine braking not working.
Rode another 20 minutes and the power steering light never came on
Next test ride: Weather clear 45* to 50*
After 1 hr 40 min the speedometer would only read 0
Quick restart (Normally I stop in the run position and let the gauges settle out) after restart speedometer only reads 0
After 3 minute shut down a normal restart everything okay
Rode another 2 hours with no problem
Next test ride: Clear and 55*
After 1 hr speedometer only reads 0
No power steering warning light. No engine braking
Continued riding for another 15 minutes....no change
Shut it off for 10 min, and a normal restart. Everything okay.
After riding 25 min. speedometer would only read 0
Normal restart after a 5 minute shut down, everything okay
After 35 min. speedometer only reads 0
3 min. off and a normal restart, everything okay.
Rode another 20 min. and parked it.

I have contacted the State Attorney General Office to ask about the lemon law.
They advised me that by their view the UTV is covered by the Lemon Law.
[ For those not familiar with lemon law requirements....in Arkansas (your state might be different)
The lemon law does not apply for motorcycle, atvs, vehicles over 13,000 pounds or vehicles that have been substantially altered after purchase.
The lemon law only applies to vehicles for the first 24 months after purchased
There has to have been at least 3 attempts at repairing the same problem and one last attempt and notice has been given to the dealership
The vehicle has been in the shop for more than 30 days
The vehicle must have still been under warranty when the first repair attempt was made.

For vehicles with serous safety issues you only have to give the dealer 1 attempt at solving the issue.

There are steps\requirements for following through with a lemon law claim.]

The AG's office said that in their view UTVs are covered under the lemon law. I meet all the criteria for making a lemon law claim. The UTV has been in the shop 3 times for more than 30 days each time to try and solve the same problem.
The UTV was still under warranty when the first attempt was made
After the 3 attempts the problem is still not fixed
It is currently in the shop for a 4th attempt (I dropped it off today)

I notified the dealership that I want an additional year of factory warranty (I am very concerned that if they do finally get it working properly, what happens if 6 months later the problem arrises again? The Tech already has more than 40 hours into trying to solve the problem, shop time $85 an hour)
The dealership said they would go to bat to try and get that extra year and possibly a bit longer factory warranty but they expected Honda to not agree to it.
I explained that if Honda doesn't agree I am going to use the lemon law to get my money back. (Once Honda reacquires a vehicle through the lemon law they have to disclose in writing that it has been returned under the lemon law if they resell it)
The dealership is supposed to contact Honda and let me know what they are and are not willing to agree to.

That is where things stand right now. I will up-date this as things develop.